Barry Harris: My AHA moment regarding chords and comping

**jazzuki** · 06-10-2012, 02:34 PM

I can see the logic of Barry Harris's method and am awaiting the books arrival-all posts are very interesting and hope to give you my own impressions later.Keep shredding!

**setemupjoe** · 06-10-2012, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Is it worth learning chord scales derived from the other octatonic (bebop) scales?

1 b2 2 3 4 5 6 7 ... c d f a ... c# e g b ... Dm7 (F6)..... ......................... - A9 rootless (C# Half Dim/E min6 )

1 2 b3 3 4 5 6 7 ... c d# f a ... d e g b ... F7........ ....... .............. ......... - Em7 (G6)

1 2 3 4 b5 5 6 7 ... c e f# a ... d f g b ... D9 rootless ( F# HalfDim/Amin6) .... - G7

1 2 3 4 5 b6 6 7 . .. c e g a ... d f g# b ... C6 (Am7) ......... ..................... - Bdim7 ( G7b9 rootless )

1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7 ... c e g Bb ... d f a b ... C7 ........................ ............. - G9 rootless (B half Dim / Dmin6)

Your post brings up an interesting subject for me. I've also looked at a number of these options which I've attached below. These include the ones you have listed plus a few more. BTW your third and fifth examples are really the same scale. Also as Alan said your fourth example is the 6th diminished scale from the Barry Harris method.
Your first scale is what I call my 6#11 scale, the second is my 7#11 scale and the third is the 7th scale. I do find all these scales I've listed useful but when using them as a chordal approach I still tend to fall back on the Barry Harris scales mostly as the passing diminished chord is just easier to handle.

**paynow** · 06-10-2012, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

Your post brings up an interesting subject for me. I've also looked at a number of these options which I've attached below. These include the ones you have listed plus a few more. BTW your third and fifth examples are really the same scale. Also as Alan said your fourth example is the 6th diminished scale from the Barry Harris method.
Your first scale is what I call my 6#11 scale, the second is my 7#11 scale and the third is the 7th scale. I do find all these scales I've listed useful but when using them as a chordal approach I still tend to fall back on the Barry Harris scales mostly as the passing diminished chord is just easier to handle.

Thanks Mark. Great to have them written out. I'm listening to some tracks on your website. Wow. Excellent.

**setemupjoe** · 06-10-2012, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by paynow

Thanks Mark. Great to have them written out. I'm listening to some tracks on your website. Wow. Excellent.

Most appreciated. Thank you. I'm just amazed I was able to put these sheets together on a Sunday, my brain is usually mush by this stage of the weekend. Thanks also for checking out my website. I often think I update that thing solely for my own amusement so it's heartening to know someone is checking it out.

Mark

**paynow** · 06-10-2012, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

Most appreciated. Thank you. I'm just amazed I was able to put these sheets together on a Sunday, my brain is usually mush by this stage of the weekend. Thanks also for checking out my website. I often think I update that thing solely for my own amusement so it's heartening to know someone is checking it out.

Mark

I'm really enjoying it Mark. As I write this, I'm listening to "You Go To My Head." Who's the singer? Great cross-section of samples in different contexts. I love stuff like "Fried Bananas."

**jazzadellic** · 06-10-2012, 06:52 PM

I've played guitar for about 20 yrs now and I've never heard of these scales! I've been busy just trying to master the basic scales ;o) This thread has gotten me interested. I'm already very fluent playing chords on the guitar, but there seems to be something useful here, but I'm not quite seeing it yet. I'd be very interested in hearing how you guys (who are good with this stuff) would apply it to an actual tune, in the form of a recording or even just a few bars transcribed out. Might be better to see some standard changes re-harmonized & written out, since some of the subtleties would likely be lost on just listening to a recording. I'll see if I can figure something out myself, but it'd be nice to see how the experts would do it.

**setemupjoe** · 06-10-2012, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by jazzadellic

I've played guitar for about 20 yrs now and I've never heard of these scales! I've been busy just trying to master the basic scales ;o) This thread has gotten me interested. I'm already very fluent playing chords on the guitar, but there seems to be something useful here, but I'm not quite seeing it yet. I'd be very interested in hearing how you guys (who are good with this stuff) would apply it to an actual tune, in the form of a recording or even just a few bars transcribed out. Might be better to see some standard changes re-harmonized & written out, since some of the subtleties would likely be lost on just listening to a recording. I'll see if I can figure something out myself, but it'd be nice to see how the experts would do it.

I strongly suggest you check out some of Barry Harris' teachings. It really is an eye opener for playing changes. Alan Kingstone's book gives some great insight, especially related to the harmonic side of the theory.

**princeplanet** · 06-11-2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

I still tend to fall back on the Barry Harris scales mostly as the passing diminished chord is just easier to handle.

Easier to handle, or just sound better? The full Dim chord just has more of a "connecting", transient sound somehow. It's so unstable that it suits the connecting role. I haven't really mastered any of the others, are there certain contexts where you have found some examples more useful than others?

Nice work btw!

**setemupjoe** · 06-11-2012, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Easier to handle, or just sound better? The full Dim chord just has more of a "connecting", transient sound somehow. It's so unstable that it suits the connecting role. I haven't really mastered any of the others, are there certain contexts where you have found some examples more useful than others?

Nice work btw!

Harmonically I find them both easier to play and they connect better. The diminished chord makes the best "connective tissue". The only other scale I use harmonically is what I call my 7+5-9 scale. That's very easy to play harmonically because it's side slipping the dominant 7th chord. You'll see my example from my earlier post showed the scale jumping between the C7 and the Db7. It actually gives a nice gypsy sound which works well in the right situation.

Any chord that is chromatic to the scale (In the key of C that would be the Db7, Eb7, Gb7, Ab7 and Bb7) is always played as a 9#11.
I have covered all these extensions in my list of 8 note scales.
I use this system as well as Barry Harris' own system of scale choices which I won't outline here and which I'm sure you can find details of elsewhere.
If you're wondering why I use these extensions for each of the chords, it's because all the extensions are borrowing their notes from the parent scale. So an E7 in the key of C would use a b9 (F note) and a #5 (C note). Think of a song like "All Of Me" for a good example.

**guitarplayer007** · 06-12-2012, 12:29 PM

I have the Barry Harris book, i wish they gave some real examples how to use them in standards.
Ken

**A. Kingstone** · 06-12-2012, 03:31 PM

If refering to The Barry Harris Harmonic Method For Guitar please see pages 79-85.

**A. Kingstone** · 09-29-2012, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by bako

Alan,

Thinking from the perspective of harmony as movements as opposed to static structures has me wondering how to approach teaching.
Most guitarists learn initially through chord forms, myself included and gradually integrate motion using various methods.
Are static structures an unnecessary step? Would it be better to teach them as a member of a family of moving scale derived
harmonies from the beginning?

Thanks,
Bako

Better late than never.

Yes. Barry says "Chords come from scales".

**frajazzamico** · 10-14-2012, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by nosoyninja

from:

Did you start sounding great after that? In my experience that study approach can only burn you out.

I agree that it's important to know your instrument as much as possible. However, I try to remind myself that mastery is achieved one little step at a time...

**jazzuki** · 11-08-2012, 01:19 PM

For all you Barry Harris followers.Check out" Jazzschoolonline.com".Alan Kingstone is showing this method.

**djangoles** · 12-06-2012, 01:11 PM

Wondering if anyone is still checking this stuff out? Personally, I know I've been able to use a few of the "moves and concepts" in many playing situations with great results, just need to keep working at it.

**guitarplayer007** · 12-06-2012, 01:15 PM

I have had the book for several years, but again never really applied it to much. If only they had givien some real examples for use in jazz standards to see how it really works and what you can do with these chord scales. Then i would probably understand it more.

**jazzuki** · 12-06-2012, 01:43 PM

Djangoles.I use this book a lot.Once you get the examples Pages 79-85 they start appearing in your playing once applied to "Standards"Took your advice and got the "Chordability" dvd by Roni Ben Hur.Then had the AHA moment when I saw how versatile the diminished chord is and you dont have to dash all over the fret board to find Maj 6th and 7ths also all the Dom 7ths. Both great teaching aids.

**djangoles** · 12-06-2012, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by jazzuki

Djangoles.I use this book a lot.Once you get the examples Pages 79-85 they start appearing in your playing once applied to "Standards"Took your advice and got the "Chordability" dvd by Roni Ben Hur.Then had the AHA moment when I saw how versatile the diminished chord is and you dont have to dash all over the fret board to find Maj 6th and 7ths also all the Dom 7ths. Both great teaching aids.

Yea, It took me a while also to see how they're all connected and how it's all right under your fingers. No need to jump around to find things as much as before!

**jazzuki** · 12-06-2012, 02:14 PM

Snap!

**djangoles** · 12-06-2012, 05:39 PM

Originally Posted by guitarplayer007

I have had the book for several years, but again never really applied it to much. If only they had givien some real examples for use in jazz standards to see how it really works and what you can do with these chord scales. Then i would probably understand it more.

I know what you're saying....I found that I started to get it when I applied some of the concepts to tunes that didn't have a lot of fast changes, or remained static for a bar or two (All of Me, Hindustan, etc). It seems a little easier to experiment and find sounds/moves that you like.

**A. Kingstone** · 12-07-2012, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by djangoles

......... It seems a little easier to experiment and find sounds/moves that you like.

Bingo!

**jazzuki** · 12-07-2012, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

Bingo!

We are gradually catching on Alan! Peter/

**djangoles** · 12-07-2012, 01:06 PM

I was thinking about this last nite....The really cool thing about this method/concept in general is that it pulls all the little random things I've known about for years, and ties them all together in a usable form with moving voices that actually serve a purpose. Not just grabbing a chord and maybe altering it or extending it to make it sound "hip". I still feel totally green with the approach but I surely view harmony and chords with different eye than before I stumbled upon it.

**A. Kingstone** · 12-07-2012, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by djangoles

I was thinking about this last nite....The really cool thing about this method/concept in general is that it pulls all the little random things I've known about for years, and ties them all together in a usable form with moving voices that actually serve a purpose. Not just grabbing a chord and maybe altering it or extending it to make it sound "hip". I still feel totally green with the approach but I surely view harmony and chords with different eye than before I stumbled upon it.

Nicely put!

Harmonic improvisation.

**Vladan** · 12-07-2012, 09:02 PM

it's oter way arround from method discussed here, but something I stubled uppon:

grab minor triad, say e min, GBE, at the same time, depending on 4th note you, or someone else add to it, it's
em7, em6, CM7, G6, G9, Am9, A9, dbm7b5 and maybe some more

now move it step down FAD, you see...?
In only two triads you have complete diatonic harmonization and then some.
CM7, dm7, em7, F6, G9, am9, bm7b5, they'r all there. And ther's more to explore, just within these two grips.

Other thing, similar concept. Grab EBbE, it's C7.
If you go one fret down fro it's F7.
If you go one step up it's G7. How nice. Whole blues on 3x3 frets.
Move everything tritone up, or down, and it repeats, but inverted.
Heaven's mayhem. All day minimal, forever!

Sorrry if everyone already knew this, but I'm kinda proud I figured it all by my self, alone, without any help, ... ... oh, just shut up!!!