Jazz Chords vs Barre Chords

[P4guitar]

Who could argue... I would have enjoyed him even more if he would have had more dynamics and more shapes to his solos, you always knew where he was going... but that's not bad thing and I'm still a fan
of his recordings. Please don't take my comments as negative... I love his playing...and maybe in a time period he could have been one of my ultimate traditional jazz guitarist, in his style playing off the melody. I simply also like other styles of jazz guitar. I dug his Rob McConnell's Big Band playing, and remember his recording with Desmond, beautiful. But once he ventured outside of his one style... well I'm sure you have listened... the voicings really didn't work... but who cares... still was incredible and beautiful style of playing jazz.

Reg,

You're saying two things at once. 1) you dug him in a backhanded way and 2) you sort of diss him and it comes off a little snooty. Well, I guess there is sort of consistency there with a touch of 'tude.

All of that would be okay if you were more explicit and didn't leave questions begging, for example since he didn't make your cut, you might say who did and why...this would soften the attitude element somewhat.

There's no artist in earth's history who I can't find some fault with but to spend time on that is a waste my time. I pay attention to those who make the strongest statements to me and try to ignore their failings. If they have too many failings, i.e. I don't like them, I say nothing.

[Drumbler]

I think most jazz guitarists tend to exist in their own little world of a certain style (which encompasses the tunes they play, the voicings and fingerings they use, etc.)

And this goes for most guitarists of other genres too.

This is not a fault but actually a sign of their expertise.

[mr. beaumont]

Reg,

You're saying two things at once. 1) you dug him in a backhanded way and 2) you sort of diss him and it comes off a little snooty. Well, I guess there is sort of consistency there with a touch of 'tude.

All of that would be okay if you were more explicit and didn't leave questions begging, for example since he didn't make your cut, you might say who did and why...this would soften the attitude element somewhat.

There's no artist in earth's history who I can't find some fault with but to spend time on that is a waste my time. I pay attention to those who make the strongest statements to me and try to ignore their failings. If they have too many failings, i.e. I don't like them, I say nothing.

I dunno if it comes off as too snooty...there's definitely some truth to it.

I think it really helps to hear Ed in an environment where he can stretch out a bit more...I'm thinking of some of the live recordings with Desmond and Frank Rosalino...

Then again, having a "shape" to a solo is still an abstract concept, and open to some interpretation...if it becomes too obvious, it gets formulaic...I'd never slight wes as I think he's one of the greats of all time, but after a chorus of octaves, you kinda know those chords are coming, dontcha?

[Jazzaluk]

Bickert is definitely my "desert island" pick for guitar, ( maybe even jazz in general)

I regard him as an interpreter when he solos. You can always hear the melody getting stretched and decorated. The shape of his solo is pretty true to the shape of the melody. This is the way he plays and few can match the vibe and voice leading.

Some like it hot but I like it cool and Ed is the king of cool as far as I'm concerned.

[Reg]

Reg,

You're saying two things at once. 1) you dug him in a backhanded way and 2) you sort of diss him and it comes off a little snooty. Well, I guess there is sort of consistency there with a touch of 'tude.

All of that would be okay if you were more explicit and didn't leave questions begging, for example since he didn't make your cut, you might say who did and why...this would soften the attitude element somewhat.

There's no artist in earth's history who I can't find some fault with but to spend time on that is a waste my time. I pay attention to those who make the strongest statements to me and try to ignore their failings. If they have too many failings, i.e. I don't like them, I say nothing.

Hey 4stuning... your probable right... and the politically correct thing to do is never diss anyone. I should be more tactful... And when I say I dig his playing in his style... I mean it... but his style is a small piece of the pie when talking about jazz comping.
One possible difference between how we see and hear things is I'm not worried about my personal playing... but I am worried about the directions and levels of guitarist musicianship... and I'm extremely worried about the directions and levels of musicianship being taught. I've watched over the years... well your probable getting my drift... I apologize when I come off 'tude... but that's one of the problems to me...The "everything's OK and it all works in the end" methods don't produce...What is the non-snooty, politically correct way to tell someone what they don't want to hear? I don't like the directions of guitar instruction. I do stick my foot in my mouth... many times... I would really like to say a lot more... I'm constantly trying to get players to open their eyes and ears... I'm trying to find a balance. So again I apologize if I offended you or anyone else...Reg

[JonnyPac]

Interesting thread. Got here late... Nice food for thought all around, y'all.

I don't play full barre chord in jazz so often, but I "see" them all the time. They are essentially the core triads (or 7th chords) dropped into a CAGED sized box that is easy to grab and understand.

When I bust out some spidery close voicing or a series of so what/4th chords, first I see the standard barre shape. I use it as reference point; a simple collection of intervals from which I can make educated alterations.

[P4guitar]

Hey 4stuning... your probable right... and the politically correct thing to do is never diss anyone. I should be more tactful... And when I say I dig his playing in his style... I mean it... but his style is a small piece of the pie when talking about jazz comping.
One possible difference between how we see and hear things is I'm not worried about my personal playing... but I am worried about the directions and levels of guitarist musicianship... and I'm extremely worried about the directions and levels of musicianship being taught. I've watched over the years... well your probable getting my drift... I apologize when I come off 'tude... but that's one of the problems to me...The "everything's OK and it all works in the end" methods don't produce...What is the non-snooty, politically correct way to tell someone what they don't want to hear? I don't like the directions of guitar instruction. I do stick my foot in my mouth... many times... I would really like to say a lot more... I'm constantly trying to get players to open their eyes and ears... I'm trying to find a balance. So again I apologize if I offended you or anyone else...Reg

Reg,
I'm not at all about PC, I'm for the truth. That said, art is highly subjective and truth is only as one's ears hear it.

Bickert is no product of the factory music school and maybe that's why he has his own voice, something very lacking in even competent musicians. One's own voice is what art is about IMO. You might not hear it that way though.

So lets set things right. I get that Bickert is not on your pinnacle of trad jazz guitar. I'll cry myself to sleep tonight but maybe my wife will hug me and make it all better...well probably not. The question is who would Reg place there?

[TH]

Lorne Lofsky? hah

Hey another guy that doesn't make the list!
David

[Reg]

Reg,
I'm not at all about PC, I'm for the truth. That said, art is highly subjective and truth is only as one's ears hear it.

Bickert is no product of the factory music school and maybe that's why he has his own voice, something very lacking in even competent musicians. One's own voice is what art is about IMO. You might not hear it that way though.

So lets set things right. I get that Bickert is not on your pinnacle of trad jazz guitar. I'll cry myself to sleep tonight but maybe my wife will hug me and make it all better...well probably not. The question is who would Reg place there?

Hey 4thstuning... there seems to be two definitions to truth... some never change and some are a reflection of as you said... how one interprets, from the heart, our honest opinion, or however we what to define a truth based on what we're aware of. The Art philosophy thing is a discussion that never ends, and would rather save for a different thread... I'll try and make a list of my favorite jazz comp style players... But back to comping in a jazz style if you read my post,#25... I very simply explained how I view jazz comping... which explained the use of bar chords as compared to jazz chords.
When I hear/see players comping, playing... I look for the harmonic process or method of how they derive the approach which there using when comping...there are many.
There are basically two approaches to comping... you comp in a style which reflects what your playing... how you choose to approach the tune, the "context" usually determines the style of approach. The context is everything beside you.
Or you adapt your personal style of playing to fit the context...
They both work, but obviously the first method doesn't work very well if your awareness of the many choices is not there.
Pick a few tunes from trad. Jazz standards and I'll post examples of comping over each tune in different styles... different jazz approaches to the same tune. It can become a little complicated but I'll try and explain how each element influences how I use. We would all interpret somewhat differently... but there are many consistencies that don't change... at least where we start from. It would be cool if others would post also. I'm in studio recording the next three days and have long gigs every night until Tues. ... I'm gone, I'll be toast, but will check in and post on Tues... Or we can do nothing and move on... Reg

[brwnhornet59]

[QUOTE][ I'm in studio recording the next three days and have long gigs every night until Tues. ... I'm gone, I'll be toast, but will check in and post on Tues... Or we can do nothing and move on... Reg/QUOTE]


Where are you gigging at Reg? What State are you in?

[pingu]

I for one don't see you dissing anyone Reg
You are a great player and a very generous teacher here

I just remembered a flexi-disc I got free with Guitar Player Mag
Decades ago where Ed demo-ed a little lesson on a
minor ii V i and that was what hooked me into the
whole Altered sound Jazz thing in the first place

So thanks Ed and Reg
Have a good gig man

[Reg]

Hey Matt yes... to comp in jazz styles you do at least need the basic chords, any way you approach, that imply the basic harmonic areas implied by jazz. And as I've said there are layers of development to get to a point where you actually can comp in jazz styles.
I'm in SF area of Calif... the gigs are standard...I played last night, four hour gig tonight in Calistoga, the wine country, showcase jazz gig Sat. night, Sun. jazz service with JB, and jazz gig that night, that's all normal, that's what I do. But throwing in three days of studio work makes it tough... Mon. Night I host a jam... it's cool, I'll try and video some. The studio time is during the days... starting in a couple of hours... I equate four hours of playing at a professional level to eight hours of most standard working jobs...
Thanks for comments Pingu... Reg

[brwnhornet59]

Beautiful part of Ca. Rather active fault lines though. That would make me nervous. You are prob used to that.

BTW, Jazz Service with JB? What is that?

[wizard3739]

I dunno if it comes off as too snooty...there's definitely some truth to it.

I think it really helps to hear Ed in an environment where he can stretch out a bit more...I'm thinking of some of the live recordings with Desmond and Frank Rosalino...

Then again, having a "shape" to a solo is still an abstract concept, and open to some interpretation...if it becomes too obvious, it gets formulaic...I'd never slight wes as I think he's one of the greats of all time, but after a chorus of octaves, you kinda know those chords are coming, dontcha?

+1 Jeff. I totally agree about Wes. I love his recordings especially when he started out without a lot of octaves. His early recording really showed his natural ability to play excellent, cool, melodic single lines. For me, he was a fantastic musician, playing by ear.

wiz

[Space Pickle]

guys i found the best ed bickert record

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

guys i found the best ed bickert record

Holy Canadian Content!

[EightString]

I'm fond of drop-2 and drop-3 grips as my go-to for jazz comping work, but sometimes if other instrumentation is taking up space, I might drop the root, or even pull a Lenny and just play the 3rd and 6th or 3rd and 7th to add some color.

On the other end of the spectrum, when playing solo, I've been working on using my 7th or 8th string to play the roots of chords, and it has an interesting effect of sounding more like a bass and a guitar together.

I'll admit, I have occasionally used barre chords in a solo vocal accompaniment context, but they always contain, at minimum, a 6th or 7th, and tend to be transitional, not my meat and potatoes.

[Vihar]

I'll admit, I have occasionally used barre chords in a solo vocal accompaniment context, but they always contain, at minimum, a 6th or 7th, and tend to be transitional, not my meat and potatoes.

I wouldn't have expected that barré chords would be looked at as things to be embarrassed about. I hope music's still about the sound not the looks, so whatever gets you there is perfect by me.

Also, I don't think the jazzpolice will exterminate anyone for not adding any extensions to a chord. Many pros would be dead by now.

[EightString]

I wouldn't have expected that barré chords would be looked at as things to be embarrassed about. I hope music's still about the sound not the looks, so whatever gets you there is perfect by me.

Also, I don't think the jazzpolice will exterminate anyone for not adding any extensions to a chord. Many pros would be dead by now.

I suppose my post did seem a liitle apologetic at the end.

I suppose it's just that my ears are listening for a certain sound when I play jazz, so I'm my own "jazz police". lol

[Vihar]

I suppose my post did seem a liitle apologetic at the end.

I suppose it's just that my ears are listening for a certain sound when I play jazz, so I'm my own "jazz police". lol

Ahh alright, I misread you then. lol

[Reg]

EightStrings comments about occasionally using bar chords during solo vocal accompaniment was pretty straight ahead... generally when playing jazz you don't want fifths on the bottom, especially in the bar chord style... there's a history lesson about origins of different styles of music... harmonic sources and typical usage.... But many times vocal jazz tunes are from a pop source which does want fifths on bottom which helps reinforce a harmonic style. Vihar...I understand jazz is not your thing, but would be nice if you understood the differences when you make comments about jazz...Reg

[Vihar]

Vihar...I understand jazz is not your thing

Reg, I'm afraid you have some serious problems with your understanding then. As for the rest of your post:

generally when playing jazz you don't want fifths on the bottom, especially in the bar chord style... there's a history lesson about origins of different styles of music... harmonic sources and typical usage.... But many times vocal jazz tunes are from a pop source which does want fifths on bottom which helps reinforce a harmonic style.

I have to admit I have no idea what you meant by mentioning fifths, I sure didn't mention them at all.

Could you please explain what you meant about the "fifths on bottom" by looking at this C major7 chord with the small barré across the D, G and B strings?



I would appreciate it.

Roland

[brwnhornet59]

Reg, I'm afraid you have some serious problems with your understanding then. As for the rest of your post:



I have to admit I have no idea what you meant by mentioning fifths, I sure didn't mention them at all.

Could you please explain what you meant about the "fifths on bottom" by looking at this C major7 chord with the small barré across the D, G and B strings?



I would appreciate it.

Roland

Not to take away from the acerbity of either of you statements, I do find your example to be out of context. Though technically speaking the inversion you cite is a bar chord, it is not what comes to mind when someone talks of Barre chords in a non jazz genre. I use that inversion playing jazz. Rooting off the 3rd is a great way to voice, as well as staying out of the bass players way.

Now have at it.

[Vihar]

Well when I talk about barré chords I mean any of those kind, going by the definition I've learned:

"In music, a barre chord (also known as bar chord or rarely barr chord) is a type of guitar chord, where one or more fingers are used to press down multiple strings across the guitar fingerboard (like a bar pressing down the strings), enabling the guitarist to play a chord not restricted by the tones of the guitar's open strings."

I'm sorry if I was going against common sense all this time.

[brwnhornet59]

Roland, nobody said that your example was not a bar chord. We both know what a bar chord is. You also knew, at least I did, that 8string and Reg were referring to the obvious root, 5th, root octave, 3rd, not inversions. Your lack of common sense has nothing to do with the definition.