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Hello everybody,
I have a few questions regarding type of chords for various situations. What type of chords would you use in this situations:
1. in trio situation with bass and drums - when bass is soloing
2. in quartet situation with piano, b&d - when bass is soloing, when piano is soloing.
What I mean is what type of chords would not clash or would be the best for this situations.
For instance, Pat Metheny is using different types of chords in different situation.
Thanks.
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11-12-2010 04:42 PM
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You have a bass player you don't need to play roots of chords so can play small voicings. If there is a KB you really don't need to play at all, but if you do keep it simple just 3rd's and 7ths and maybe a color tone. The great Freddie Green would many times just play single notes as accompaniment. With a bass player it depends on what he perfers some want a little harmony support, other don't. It's like accompanying anyone you have to understand what they like when someone solos its their stage and you're there to support them.
Originally Posted by ipv
You will find the musicians that are good at accompanying others work the most.
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Welcome ipv,
I agree with docbop. Keep it simple. One of my favs is Ed Bickert. If you haven't checked him out, do so... soon!
Cheers, Ron
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Both give good advice.
I would add that some of the best advice would be to listen to some great players. That is the best way to learn.
I would add to the other guys that I tend to stay up on the top 4 strings. If I get to low, I think it gets a little muddy and in the way of the bass.
Comping with a piano is an art form all unto itself. It may be a little chauvinistic, but I think that piano players are often the problem. They are so used to being the only comper and not having to accommodate other compers. To back this up, I find it much easier to comp with vibes or another guitar. To be able to comp with another comper, you both need to think lighter really listen to each other - as well as listening to the soloist. You can comp in different registers, with different timbres (like I'll do a quick thumb strum), or you can use different note values (one does long notes the other short and staccato) - but you definitely need to be in different acoustic "spaces." Unfortunately, it is all to easy to become a conversation between the compers, ignoring the solist. Unfortunately, I can count on my fingers the number of pianists who meet these qualifications.
Often if you are with a pianist, you will end up taking turns comping, for each soloist. You usually won't comp for the pianist, as his left hand knows exactly what he wants - but I still like to throw in a few chord punches, if I can find the space. I often end up taking a backseat to the pianist in terms of comping - its just easier than trying to deal with their egos (can you smell the bias?) That's one of the reasons why I prefer to play without one.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 11-12-2010 at 06:35 PM.
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I have to say I love the guitar/vibe combination, like Metheny/Burton. Vibe players know how to leave open space. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
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And listen to your band mates. You can't simply copy what Metheny does unless you're in a band that plays like his band. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
I guess you could work out some of this kind of stuff in rehearsal. However, I used to play bass in several bands that had fine keys and guitars, and I don't recall them talking about it much. We mostly just listened to each other. And when I was taking my solos I didn't care what they did. If they started to cover me up, I'd move to another register, or just stop and let them run for a second. If they didn't yield, I would come back in even louder.
It's all about reacting to what you hear going on around you.
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Ha! Beautiful. Originally Posted by kenbennett
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Don't forget Methney is the composer/arranger so knows where he can fit like a glove. Even with Lyle Mays who writes and arranges with Pat, but the two have played together so long they know how to work together.
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What about Red Norvo and Tal Farlow? Pretty nice!
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Thanks guys,
I appreciate Your answers.
I find my self studying Metheny's approach to comping in various situations and he is always playing different chords, depending on situtation (trio, quartet...) Also, I like Pass (with Oscar and other situations), Green...
What it would be nice is to put on the forum some quick advice in notations for all those situations. I'll try to put some of my advices in future.
Regards.
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I'm with you about interfering with the bass, but I've always thought the top string didn't really work for comping, it sounds either too weedy or too shrill. Leavitt says the same. You damp it or strum over it. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
(Honestly. I'm not saying this just to disagree with you, Kevin. We need to start a thread of our own to talk about the ethnomusicological stuff and whatnot, the natives get restless when we go on about it.)
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It would be cool to see your ideas. So do you normally play with piano or just in trio? Originally Posted by ipv
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When comping with a pianist I find the rhythmic clashing to be much more harsh then the harmonic ( you can get away with the harmonic by playing shell chords but you do not know when the pianist will throw in the chord rhythmically).
So when I comp with a pianist I do it only when playing latin/bossa because then the comping has a much more strict rhythm (like another rhythm instrument). I leave the swing to the pianist.
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That's cool. I guess it can be. I think the key is to have a lighter attack so you get a more pianistic timbre. Really, the guitar (when you consider that it sounds an octave lower) is a pretty low instrument. I agree, if you dig in hard, you will get a "snappy" sound, but for this I usually use the flesh of my fingers with a soft pull. Of course it also depends on what register the soloist is in - if it's a tenor or a bass then I would probably be up on the top 4, but if it's a flute, I guess I might be on the middle 4. Perhaps I was over generalizing - it's more something I do by ear than conscious thought. Originally Posted by JohnRoss
But really, if you coniseder the post-Sartrian existential ontology of the origins of comping within the compass of the ethnomusicological research being done by Inuit floutist during medieval solar eclipses, then you'd be a fool not to conclude that... Oops, sorry. Sometimes I don't realize that I'm doing it. Hey, just be glad you're not my wife. Sometimes I think that she'd listening to loud music on her headphones just hoping she'll go deaf.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 11-15-2010 at 05:04 PM. Reason: slight elaboration - typo
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That can be true, and if you have a good enough ear, you solve a lot of the harmonic problems. Originally Posted by jayx123
As far as the rhythmic problems - assuming you're with a piano player who's not sharing space but you want to comp anyway - sometimes I will try and be a little more simple. I'll just do quick strums with my thumb and get a more percussive sound that I quickly damp. I just try and hit percussive hits based on what I'm hearing in the piano and soloist, keeping it simple.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Peace,
Kevin
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Absolutely. And - I think I've said this before, sorry - this is true when you're comping alongside any chord player, a pianist, another guitarist, a banjo, whatever. It's a matter of being on the same wavelength rhythmically, and of which of you is most in step with the rest of the rhythm section. A sensible pianist wouldn't fuss around with lots of accents off the beat, for example, if the rhyhm section as a whole were doing a straight 2 2, that would just be irritating. And then there are, unfortunately, all too many players who think swing means anticipating the beat - it doesn't, of course, though pulling on the beat is a normal way of adding umph. But if one of you is pulling and the other dragging, you have a serious misunderstanding. Originally Posted by jayx123
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This thread has suddenly turned more thought provoking. If the piano isn't too busy, the guitar could adopt a different rhythmic cycle and get behind the piano--sort of comp the comp--, maybe by playing off the snare or kick, or the piano itself, instead of the solo or the main rhythm.
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But in the standard jazz combo aesthetic, the soloist is the center of attention. I would be very wary of a comper who is not responding primarily to the soloist. That doesn't mean you can't grab something the drums do, but your primary focus should be the soloist: the comper is accompanying and complementing the soloist. I do think that if you have a sensitive pianist, and you both stay focused on the soloist, and can listen to each other and listen to each other, that it can work. Originally Posted by kenbennett
But of course, some people approach jazz where there is not one focus, with more of a "group improv" dynamic. Here, there is not one soloist, but in theory, everyone is soloing lightly while yielding enough space that others can have some room. So everyone is soloing and everyone is comping, sort of. It's a cool thing. Some of the bands I have been in have done that from time to time, even if just for a chorus or two.
Peace,
Kevin
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Group improv -- sort of an Ornette outing?
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Yeah, that would be what I was talking about. It doesn't have to be nearly that frenetic, but that's the idea. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
It's not really something that you want to pull out while playing "Fly Me to the Moon" while playing your dinner jazz gig at the country club. Not that it must be in a modern voice - I've been with guys who did over standards in a more "traditional" voice. But I think that the lack of a homophony - a single melody over accompaniment - can be hard to follow for inexperienced listeners.
Really, it's not that far off. Compers regularly make small melodic statements in the top voices of their chords. This may be in reaction to the soloist or a suggestion to the soloist. Really this is the same idea except that now instead of one soloist leading the way, there is no leader. Everyone is making melodic statements and listening and reacting to each other. Various voices may briefly step into the foreground, but then recede to give someone else a chance. It can be a lot of fun but you need the right bunch of guys who can really listen and have the sensitivity to yield space where appropriate. And you need an audience who can dig it.
Peace,
KevinLast edited by ksjazzguitar; 11-16-2010 at 02:10 AM. Reason: typos
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Yea, I get it. Better to lay out than distract the listener from the main event. That's true across other genres too. Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar
As listener and player I enjoy a good group jam too sometimes.
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What you play almost comes down to...how well you play. I hate to say that, but that's what I see all the time. When I'm covering a R&B or gig in that style where each player covers a part and we lock, and simply get tighter as soloist does his or her thing. The trick is to add simple parts that help accent the groove. That part could be a simple two or three beat octave lick,( you use licks because you want what you play... to be something expected, like it was going on all the time and as groove tightens up you suddenly can hear it). When you comp for jazz tunes, there is still a groove, ( at least in theory), there's an accent pattern which repeats. Once that pattern is implied there is freedom , as was mentioned above to also improvise... The better the players,( able to keep as reference the implied accent pattern as blanket for development or variation), the more freedom we have to interact with rest of rhythm section or the soloist. Some soloist have something to say and don't need any help getting it out, you simply listen, react and follow, others are open to see where the tune might go. When that's the case... the door's open and it become very live... and I believe becomes great entertainment... I hosted a Jazz Jam last night, it's a monthly thing I do, try and get amateurs the chance to play with pros, a lot of my working musician friends come down and sit in. I started streaming it live on the web, very cool. I think I'm one of the first, anyway I'm very relaxed, basically have my music shit together, sorry.. I suck ...have mediocre talent at best but have been doing it way too long, a bright monkey would be better if it put in as much time as I have. There were three or four pianist there last night, two were pros, we bump into each other at gigs and basically know how we each cover different styles etc... I don't worry about what registers I use, what vocings or if I'm playing same thing as piano... sometimes those are great moments, when I lock with a piano playing same thing. We all listen. Most of the time I'm playing heads, so there's no comping issues, when we both comp... depending on gig, someone usually is directing, it's not like it's it takes that much... what it really means is the rest of the players don't have to worry about it. Since I'm host... I directed last night. Generally one chordal player does his or her thing,( the harmonic choices, rhythmic kicks etc...) and the other lays back and follows, either accenting, doubling or creating a different part. If nothing is needed I lay out and wait for second time through to add part or wait for solos. On a different post I talked about how improvisation works... anyway improvisations have a general shape and balance... it's part of the rhythm sections job to help develop that shape for the soloist, when you keep that as your focus whatever you play usually works well... gotta go best Reg
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Thanks Reg, great post.
Any chance you could post the link to stream? I'd love to watch.
Cheers, Ron
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Hey guys,
I play trio in last 1,5 years. Before that we had great pianist in a band but he moved away. I miss him so much.
I'm glad that so many of you gave your answers because I find my self mostly talking about comping when I talk about gigs.
I have one proposal: listen to Mike Brecker's African skies. There is lot of polyrhythm in it, this gave my band (when piano was there) a lot of idea how to spice things up. Like someone said, everybody can make their melodic (or rhythmical) statements and then other are answering to it.
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Hey Ron... next one is Dec. 20th, I host every third Monday night of each month, 7pm-10pm Pacific Time (west coast, SF area), that's about all I can handle. I'll post all the info. in the next week, I'm still trying to finish the site. Only thing up is live streaming. Last night was 2nd trial... went well and I can now start to push the PR, as well as a jazz player can do. I was really only aiming for Jan. buy why wait, I think it will be good for jazz in my area... thanks Reg Originally Posted by RonD
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