When to use half-diminished and diminished chords?

[christianm77]

I'm okay with chords, I know most of them, even inversions and specific string sets, but it's only for backing. Chord melody means learning all those new fingerings, often tortuous, and I don't need them. I play with them sometimes, and really like some of the sounds people have created, but I don't need to use them.

I probably ought to experiment a bit more and incorporate them into solos. I'm not good at chordal sounds in solos. It's a weak point.

Oh I don’t know, I work out lots of stuff on my instrument from records I have no intention of working into my playing. I just want to be able to hear better, and it’s all good for knowledge and playing.

Anyway sometimes it’s nice to be able to hear a new voicing that you do like.

What is interesting is when you hear a player like Peter Bernstein or Mike Moreno making completely bog standard voicings sound fresh. I don’t want to copy their style, but it does inspire.

Anyway, piano is were it’s at for me. A bit of creativity has to creep in because we are limited by the instrument. How do we get the sense of that Bill Evans voicing?

I find that stuff pretty fun and creative. Otherwise it’s me just playing the usual shit and I can do that already.

[coolvinny]

Half dim can also be a tritone sub for the 1 chord.

BbMaj7 - EbMaj7- Dmin - G7 becomes
Emin7(b5)- EbMaj7- Dmin - G7

I think that happens in "I thought about you" and "on a misty night" It also happens in "ain't no mountain high enough" the first few chords are.

Interesting...but is it a "sub" or a form of re-harmonization? On a major chord, altering a chord tone like that strikes me as a bit risky if viewed as a straight-up "sub"...might be jarring for unsuspecting band-mates.

Full disclosure: the one time I gigged "I Thought About You" it was a kind of a trainwreck - or at least I think my solo was, so I am no by no means a master of that tune's harmony.

[joe2758]

Interesting...but is it a "sub" or a form of re-harmonization? On a major chord, altering a chord tone like that strikes me as a bit risky if viewed as a straight-up "sub"...might be jarring for unsuspecting band-mates.

Full disclosure: the one time I gigged "I Thought About You" it was a kind of a trainwreck - or at least I think my solo was, so I am no by no means a master of that tune's harmony.

I use this ALL the time in this context:

Bb-Bb7-Eb-Ebmin
becomes
Bb-Bb7-Em7b5-Ebmin

I use it so much I call it "the ballad turnaround"

[coolvinny]

I use this ALL the time in this context:

Bb-Bb7-Eb-Ebmin
becomes
Bb-Bb7-Em7b5-Ebmin

I use it so much I call it "the ballad turnaround"

I was referring more to replacing the Bb with the Em7b5.

In your example, I can see the Em7b5 acting like A7 or some other sort of chromatic turnound-y thing. Also I think turnarounds offer more flexibility in general than say bar 5 of the form. The one that had me curious was the following example from timscarey's post:

"BbMaj7 - EbMaj7- Dmin - G7 "becomes
Emin7(b5)- EbMaj7- Dmin - G7

[joe2758]

I was referring more to replacing the Bb with the Em7b5.

In your example, I can see the Em7b5 acting like A7 or some other sort of chromatic turnound-y thing. Also I think turnarounds offer more flexibility in general than say bar 5 of the form. The one that had me curious was the following example from timscarey's post:

"BbMaj7 - EbMaj7- Dmin - G7 "becomes
Emin7(b5)- EbMaj7- Dmin - G7

oh, that's just a Gmin6 (relative minor)

[christianm77]

1) Melody
2) Bassline
3) Middle voices if necessary

Guitarist get a bit hung up on 3) because it's what they do most of the time. But it's not really that big of a deal.

[coolvinny]

oh, that's just a Gmin6 (relative minor)

lol, oh yeah. OK I'm going to experiment with this use of half dim... Thanks!

[christianm77]

lol, oh yeah. OK I'm going to experiment with this use of half dim... Thanks!

Learn Night and Day, Georgia on my Mind, Just One of Those Things, Aguas de Marco, Djangology, some variants of Embraceable You, etc.

It's a pretty common move. As a sub for a turnaround starting on I, it makes a good variation in the second A of a tune, or an ending. Also you can use an inverted triad instead: C/E instead of Em7b5 for Bb.

I see the Em7b5 also a C7 chord. But II7 is the same as VIm really, it's where it's from.

Stevie Wonder uses a variant with a m7 in Sir Duke.

It's all in the melody.

I6 - 1 3 5 6
#IVm7b5 - #4 6 1 3

So it's really handy, as if the melody is on 1 or 3 (or 6), it works great..