Following the soloist

[Alter]

He would comp accordingly. We would alternate soloing and comping and you were supposed to match the scale with the appropriate Drop 2 voicings. I really practiced this page (this one was originally written by John Thomas, another great player, mentor and friend for me in Berklee). It has many scales in the key of G, harmonized with drop 2 voicings. Quite a workout!! You are supposed to choose one of the voicings (if there are more than one on a given melody note), and practice the scale with chords going up and down.

[pamosmusic]

Does that mean that, say, if the soloist plays a tritone arp then next chorus you play the tritone chord? I think that's usually a mistake. If it doesn't mean that, what does it mean?

Maybe now and again, but I would think generally not. Not really sure I would think much of a tritone arpeggio. Kind of standard fare? I’d be more interested in the rhythm and the placement and stuff. Does it feel out and intense or is he just bopping along?

What it might mean:

Does the person play the turnarounds to that blues pretty straight?

If they play a Lady Bird turnaround then you might want to catch that the next time.

if they’re doing some McCoy Tyner planing stuff then you can pedal.

Lots of stuff. Listen to what they’re doing is useful advice. What it actually means depends on the soloist and the accompanist and the tune and the situation.

[Christian Miller]

I appreciate the discussion.

For me, it comes down to evaluating the advice to "recognize the harmony in the solo and comp accordingly" or words to that effect. Is it just BS?

When I try to particularize this advice, I get nowhere useful. But, I don't have big ears. Makes me wonder how those with huge ears might respond to this advice.

I agree that tracking rhythm and intensity are basic. The amount of space being left in the solo also matters. Then, there's a question about how much to lead the soloist with your own harmonic ideas. When it comes to how to track the harmony of the solo, suddenly there are so many situations and considerations that general statements are difficult.

To be honest the difficulty of having this discussion may come down to the fact that this is mostly learned experientially. And through checking out records. We could probably all do with transcribing more comping, but any amount of focussed listening to comping will pay off.


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[rpjazzguitar]

Maybe now and again, but I would think generally not. Not really sure I would think much of a tritone arpeggio. Kind of standard fare? I’d be more interested in the rhythm and the placement and stuff. Does it feel out and intense or is he just bopping along?

I agree.

What it might mean:

If they play a Lady Bird turnaround then you might want to catch that the next time.

Or not. If you play the vanilla turnaround and the soloist does the LB turnaround, the juxtaposition may sound great. If the soloist sticks with it next chorus (no guarantee) and you comp the LB turnaround, it's going to sound much more vanilla.

Lots of stuff. Listen to what they’re doing is useful advice. What it actually means depends on the soloist and the accompanist and the tune and the situation.

Agreed. Listen to volume, intensity, density, all of which lead to specific ideas for comping appropriately. What to do with the harmony is not so obvious.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe now and again, but I would think generally not. Not really sure I would think much of a tritone arpeggio. Kind of standard fare? I’d be more interested in the rhythm and the placement and stuff. Does it feel out and intense or is he just bopping along?

I agree.

What it might mean:

If they play a Lady Bird turnaround then you might want to catch that the next time.

Or not. If you play the vanilla turnaround and the soloist does the LB turnaround, the juxtaposition may sound great. If the soloist sticks with it next chorus (no guarantee) and you comp the LB turnaround, it's going to sound much more vanilla.

Lots of stuff. Listen to what they’re doing is useful advice. What it actually means depends on the soloist and the accompanist and the tune and the situation.

Agreed. Listen to volume, intensity, density, all of which lead to specific ideas for comping appropriately. What to do with the harmony is not so obvious.

I honestly have no idea what you want here.

like Christian said, doing this well comes from experience. If someone is giving you the advice you’re asking about, and not giving you tools or experience, then disregard.

But that goes for most advice

[Christian Miller]

Also if you develop a relationship with one musician they might have a different preference to another. Some might like it if you come with them more, others might prefer it if you don’t.


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[Cunamara]

Maybe I have just not played in the rarified air of jazz genius (I wouldn't belong there anyway), but it's always seemed to me that the soloist usually wants solid time/groove and clearly announced changes to play against. If they are heading outside, there has to be an inside to contrast it with. No one's ever said to me "hey, man, can you comp more outside for me?"

Don't forget that the listening experience is post-hoc and a lot of the time the music had an aleatoric quality to it (e.g., chance). The soloist played what they played, the rhythm section played what they played; they all took a chance and it worked out. On the albums the good takes are released and the bad ones end up in the vault for the 30th anniversary release for completists- after the artist and producer are dead and can't defend themselves any more. (Sorry, I've bought a few of these and almost never has the outtake material been an improvement; usually it's clear why the album was originally released the way it was. Now I usually just buy the original versions).

[AllanAllen]

(Sorry, I've bought a few of these and almost never has the outtake material been an improvement; usually it's clear why the album was originally released the way it was. Now I usually just buy the original versions).

It's got to be rare circumstances for a vaulted release to be a gem. Things like Billie Holidays All of Me, which was too long to press onto a 78, are the exception.

[Christian Miller]

Maybe I have just not played in the rarified air of jazz genius (I wouldn't belong there anyway), but it's always seemed to me that the soloist usually wants solid time/groove and clearly announced changes to play against. If they are heading outside, there has to be an inside to contrast it with. No one's ever said to me "hey, man, can you comp more outside for me?"

Don't forget that the listening experience is post-hoc and a lot of the time the music had an aleatoric quality to it (e.g., chance). The soloist played what they played, the rhythm section played what they played; they all took a chance and it worked out. On the albums the good takes are released and the bad ones end up in the vault for the 30th anniversary release for completists- after the artist and producer are dead and can't defend themselves any more. (Sorry, I've bought a few of these and almost never has the outtake material been an improvement; usually it's clear why the album was originally released the way it was. Now I usually just buy the original versions).

This has generally been my experience.

There are also more interactive ways of playing.

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[PickingMyEars]

Re: Rhythm

That might be more challenging than meets the ear.

A lot of soloists and drummers hate when you just copy their rhythm verbatim.

The challenge is how do you respond to the rhythm? Set a stable bed or answer the rhythm (by finishing the rhythmic statement).

If anything, I am too busy with my rhythms when compin' (as are a lot of people, as Adam Maness and Peter Martin can attest to).

Accompaniment is tricky shit, but that's what gets us hired--I heard

[Tal_175]

He would comp accordingly. We would alternate soloing and comping and you were supposed to match the scale with the appropriate Drop 2 voicings. I really practiced this page (this one was originally written by John Thomas, another great player, mentor and friend for me in Berklee). It has many scales in the key of G, harmonized with drop 2 voicings. Quite a workout!! You are supposed to choose one of the voicings (if there are more than one on a given melody note), and practice the scale with chords going up and down.

I was talking about this sort of exercise in another thread. Playing harmonized continuous scales over a tune. Going up and down in scale steps and changing the scale when chord changes except each note is harmonized with a voicing. It's a good workout.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe I have just not played in the rarified air of jazz genius (I wouldn't belong there anyway), but it's always seemed to me that the soloist usually wants solid time/groove and clearly announced changes to play against. If they are heading outside, there has to be an inside to contrast it with. No one's ever said to me "hey, man, can you comp more outside for me?"

Don't forget that the listening experience is post-hoc and a lot of the time the music had an aleatoric quality to it (e.g., chance). The soloist played what they played, the rhythm section played what they played; they all took a chance and it worked out. On the albums the good takes are released and the bad ones end up in the vault for the 30th anniversary release for completists- after the artist and producer are dead and can't defend themselves any more. (Sorry, I've bought a few of these and almost never has the outtake material been an improvement; usually it's clear why the album was originally released the way it was. Now I usually just buy the original versions).

Yeah. I feel like if a soloist wants you popping off, it’s usually not hard to tell.