Hobbyist Comping for other Soloists.

[GuyBoden]

As a Hobby player, I don't want complex chords and complex rhythmic comping when I'm trying to play my improv solo.

Simple chords are all I need, so I can hear and follow the harmony easily. (We Hobby players don't usually have good ears.)

If you too are a Hobby player, have you experienced over complex comping when you are trying to solo?

[Bob_Ross]

I'm not a "hobby player" so maybe take this with a grain of salt:

When I'm soloing, I want the accompinament to support me

...but sometimes, "support" also means "inspire" or "challenge" or even "provoke".

At the very least, it means "help"

And it definitely doesn't mean "leave me hanging out there with my dick in my hand"

So "complexity" doesn't necessarily figure into it; "complex chords and complex rhythmic comping" just might support/inspire/challenge/provoke/help me...it all depends on the context.

[DawgBone]

I'm not a "hobby player" so maybe take this with a grain of salt:

When I'm soloing, I want the accompinament to support me

...but sometimes, "support" also means "inspire" or "challenge" or even "provoke".

At the very least, it means "help"

And it definitely doesn't mean "leave me hanging out there with my dick in my hand"

So "complexity" doesn't necessarily figure into it; "complex chords and complex rhythmic comping" just might support/inspire/challenge/provoke/help me...it all depends on the context.

I think this should be the goal of anyone providing rhythmic support behind a soloist. I sometimes wonder if I do to much behind a given soloist but by the time the dust settles I forget to ask them. I try to drive their solo. I guess I should start being more cognizant but I also am always looking to find my spot in the line. I dropped into a friend's gig the other day and there were two other guitarists when I got up but both were highly skilled so it was easy to find a region of the neck that wasn't being used, that functioned in a complimentary way. Nothing worse than three guys all strumming the same barre chord, lol.

[Cunamara]

When comping, which is my favorite thing to do rather than soloing, I feel that my job is to support what the soloist is playing and create a bridge between that and what the rhythm section is doing. Sometimes that is playing something complicated stuff harmonically, rhythmically, voicing-wise, etc.; in many or most cases, however, it's not. Some soloists want you to be very interactive and some don't.

Back in my undergrad and graduate school days we discussed gestalt psychology and the notion of figure/ground. The melody and/or the solo is the figure; the accompaniment, drums, bass, etc. are the ground which provides context and a way to understand what the figure means. That's how I think of it, anyway. When ground starts competing with figure, confusion ensues. I have played with a number of pianists who seemed to have difficulty grasping this and "comp" by basically continuing to play a two-handed chord solo behind the next soloist and/or with extended and altered harmony that made everyone else sound out of tune and off key.

My models for comping are Ed Bickert and Jim Hall. Sophisticated, supportive, unobtrusively complex. I'll never catch up to them, I suspect, but I can do the best me I can. And also Bob Weir, whose unique approach to guitar and comping was often buried in the mix and overshadowed by Garcia.

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't know if the word complexity is the right one for it, but I don't necessarily mind extra chords expanding the harmony as long as it still sounds like the song. I want the space to get adventurous -- and to do that, I need to hear the song behind me. Otherwise I may be forced to count or something to keep my place. An accomplished comp-er makes all that seem effortless.

[Bob_Ross]

Back in my undergrad and graduate school days we discussed gestalt psychology and the notion of figure/ground. The melody and/or the solo is the figure; the accompaniment, drums, bass, etc. are the ground which provides context and a way to understand what the figure means. That's how I think of it, anyway. When ground starts competing with figure, confusion ensues.

I'm a big fan of that abstraction* in music...but it comes with a very important corrollary: There is an almost infinitely deep space in between "figure" and "ground"
If the drums & bass are the ground and the soloist is the figure, when I'm comping I want to be somewhere in that In-Between space. Otherwise the music runs the risk of becoming 2-dimensional...literally.

===========
*Incidentally, one of my favorite uses of the figure/ground (and In-Between) abstraction in music is Chris Jonas' composition "Snake Tectonics" which is scored for saxophone quartet
...and only specifies whether a player is foreground, background, middleground, or tacet at any given moment:

[pamosmusic]

Honestly most times that I've experienced someone over doing it with their comping, it's been a less experienced player. Knowing what someone might need and when to lay out or riff is a skill in itself.

[pauln]

The accompaniment role is to make the soloist sound good. The challenge to do that is not straight forward. A soloist playing simple lines might sound better if the comping is more complex, or that might confuse and impair their playing. The level of complexity does not have to be high to upset some soloists, either because it confuses them or because it clashes with there own complexity.

For example, in a jazz blues the move to the four chord can take various forms beyond the seventh chord:

In A major...

-> D9:
-> xx4555
The ninth chord

D#(9) -> D9:
xx5666 -> xx4555
The ninth chord sliding down from a half step above (all tones moving in parallel), this is a classic blues sound that is likely to be familiar, heralding the progression change, a reassuring sound confirming where and when the change is coming.

Aaug/G -> D9
xx5665 -> xx4555
The augmented chord over its seventh designed to mimic the sliding ninth chord sound, this is more jazzy and may help or impair the soloist, depending on their experience, or this sound's appropriateness for the tune's style.

Say you slide the ninth chord and all is well. Then you try the aug/7 to ninth and all is well, maybe better; then you might consider heralding pairs:

xx5775 -> xx5455
xx5665 -> xx4555
xx7575 -> xx5455

It can happen that playing accompaniment loaded with heralding passing chords can make a green soloist's pentatonic solo sound great, and they are overjoyed with the sound of the combination. It can also happen that it goofs them up with confusion.

It can happen that an experienced soloist that plays changes may be either delighted or irritated with the level of complexity in how you comp. The thing is, it's all about musical judgement; when you comp you are pushing a harmonic framework for the soloist's sense of harmonic framework - but you can't read their mind. You have to listen for signs of delight or distress and modify your approach to meet their vision, bumping your complexity up or down to support them.

A good way to assess comping for an unknown soloist is to switch from picking strumming to thumb which will get their attention, initially making a few light chord stabs and seeing how the soloist reacts. It just takes a few seconds to gauge the bracket of complexity within which they prefer at that moment. I like using thumb throughout comping; it is softer and signals they have the floor - that I'm deferring to what they want to hear as comping... and I am listening and watching to determine that.

[John A.]

If it’s an open jam session where you’re more or less randomly paired with a pianist, then it is what it is and you just have to deal with it. If it’s a more regular situation then try to find a way to ask for less busy comping.

[I don’t really have an issue with getting lost due to “complexity” in the sense of dense voicings or syncopation. But I do sometimes find that very busy comping gets in the way. I like dynamics and space.]

[ragman1]

As a Hobby player, I don't want complex chords and complex rhythmic comping when I'm trying to play my improv solo.

Simple chords are all I need, so I can hear and follow the harmony easily. (We Hobby players don't usually have good ears.)

Guy, this is a very weird post. Are you saying that you, a hobby player, are being comped by advanced players? Or other hobby players who aren't very good at it? So tell the compers to keep it simple before you start. Or something.

Take up folk music, maybe. No probs there, I promise you!

[GuyBoden]

Guy, this is a very weird post. Are you saying that you, a hobby player, are being comped by advanced players? Or other hobby players who aren't very good at it? So tell the compers to keep it simple before you start. Or something.

Take up folk music, maybe. No probs there, I promise you!

Most Hobbyists aren't very good at comping. Too much emphasis on single note noodling.

[Avery Roberts]

As a Hobby player, I don't want complex chords and complex rhythmic comping when I'm trying to play my improv solo. Simple chords are all I need, so I can hear and follow the harmony easily.

Lester Young to piano players: "Just play the Vanilla changes".

Ralph Patt: "This book attempts to uncover the basic ("Vanilla") chord changes to over 400 of the most commonly played jazz "standards". There are many good books that show how to use chord substitutions, but if the basic chord changes are not known, substitutions and embellishments often confuse the improviser and the listener".

The individual songs are here: Index

Cheers and hope this helps,

Avery Roberts

[ragman1]

Those HTTPS-Only links are insecure. You can access the HTML site here:

Index

For 'It Could Happen To You' the Gm7/Gm7b5 issue is resolved by changing the chord to G7.

[John A.]

Most Hobbyists aren't very good at comping. Too much emphasis on single note noodling.

Which do you think would be more productive -- kvetching here about how the people you play with suck at comping, or talking to them in a reasonable way about leaving more space or laying out when you solo?

"Hey fellas, let's try something on the next tune -- at the beginning of everybody's solo, let's just have the bass and drums behind the soloist for the first 8. Then the piano can come in, but keep it sparse and follow the way the soloist builds. And pianist, on my solo, leave room for me to play some chords." What's the worst that could happen?

[GuyBoden]

Which do you think would be more productive -- kvetching here about how the people you play with suck at comping

It's more of a general comment, concerning most Hobbyist Jazz Guitarists lack of ability to comp Jazz standards, because they're spending their time practicing single note noodling exercises.

[John A.]

It's more of a general comment, concerning most Hobbyist Jazz Guitarists lack of ability to comp Jazz standards, because they're spending their time practicing single note noodling exercises.

In my own experience/observation it's probably more a matter of experience playing with other people and learning to listen than of comping poorly because of over-emphasis on single line playing.

[RLetson]

There's a parallel issue over in the folk world: fiddlers and harmonica players who play busily beind singers, instead of, say, playing long, chord-defining notes and/or short phrases in the gaps at the ends of vocal lines.

[Avery Roberts]

Those HTTPS-Only links are insecure.

Did you mean "Those HTTP only", links are insecure?

Anyways, thank you for the "heads up". I have edited my post with a more secure link.

Cheers

Avery Roberts