Comping / Chordal ideas for Cantaloupe Island

[jamiehenderson1993]

I know you can play the bass line, or the riff, or a combination of both. But I'm looking for some suggestions of how you might comp a tune like Cantaloupe Island?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[pamosmusic]

I know you can play the bass line, or the riff, or a combination of both. But I'm looking for some suggestions of how you might comp a tune like Cantaloupe Island?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

THE RIFF

Also fourths are good

[jamiehenderson1993]

THE RIFF

[AllanAllen]

Yeah, when my group does it, I hold down the riff.

We don't have to change and manipulate our comping every chorus. Comping is accompaniment to the soloist who is supposed to be the focus. Just groove on the riff and listen to the band.

[pamosmusic]

In all seriousness, I play this with a band once a month, I usually just play the riff, sometimes with a little rhythmic variation and that kind of thing. It’s a killer riff.

[James W]

Pat plays around with the riff -

[AllanAllen]

Is that a computer keyboard on his guitar? Metheny is an odd duck.

[James W]

Is that a computer keyboard on his guitar? Metheny is an odd duck.

It's a guitar-synth. McLaughlin has been known to play one, and Holdsworth with his synthaxe...

[acoustic_archtop]

I know you can play the bass line, or the riff, or a combination of both. But I'm looking for some suggestions of how you might comp a tune like Cantaloupe Island?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

I like to focus on the question more instead of just jumping to advice.

What does that mean "...how you might comp a tune like..."

That could mean a million things, rather than guess, can you elaborate? I'm sure there's a real good question there somewhere.

[jamiehenderson1993]

I like to focus on the question more instead of just jumping to advice.

What does that mean "...how you might comp a tune like..."

That could mean a million things, rather than guess, can you elaborate? I'm sure there's a real good question there somewhere.

Great question - I suppose I mean 'how do you comp over a song where you are on the same chord for 4 bars?' - I get there are LOTS of different voicings of a Fm7, Fm11 etc. but I'm looking for insight into whether the riff would be the way to go, or whether the Modal 'So What' / Quartal thing would be the way to go, or whether the Snappy / Swing tune thing would be the way to go (unlikely!) - thanks for asking! Very helpful for me to consider my question a bit deeper.

The riff is totally killer for this tune, but I'd love to hear some further insight into some of the above for possible other tunes.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I think it needs the groove


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[rpjazzguitar]

The question needs to be refined.

If you're comping behind Herbie Hancock playing the solo in that clip, "first do no harm" means that you're going to be staying out of his way. Pat does that by playing a lot of rhythmic things on the lower strings. Herbie is playing a lot of chords and interesting rhythms with them -- Pat stays out of the way of all that. You can hear a Pat chord in some of the spaces Herbie leaves.

If there's no piano and you're comping behind a horn you're going to have an opportunity to play more harmony, but you still need to fit in the rhythms played by the bass and drums -- so you have to listen and find a part. I'd have to start by figuring out the rhythmic component and then try to add some harmonic interest.

I can't hear what Herbie is playing behind Pat well enough to comment. But he's certainly not in Pat's way volume-wise or sonically. A little easier for Herbie because Pat is playing mostly single notes. And, Herbie is matching the energetic thing happening in the bass and drums.

[pauln]

The primary harmonies as the melody starts are the sounds of Fm7 to Db7 to Dm7. You could try some chord series for comping ideas. You don't have to sound all the strings of the chords... I often switch to my thumb for comping and reducing the strings I stroke makes that easier, faster, and often sound more right. Forgive my chord naming.

Fm7 chord series
All these sound nice as "Fm7 derivatives"

x11113 F7#9sus2sus4
x33343 F11sus2
x5658x F6sus2add#9
x810811x F7sus4

Db7 derivative
This one sounds nice after the last chord above

x89811x Db13

Dm7 chord series
All these sound nice as "Dm7 derivatives"

x2325x D6sus2#9add5
x33553x Dm11/C
x55565 D7#9sus4
x77787 D6sus2sus4
x78710x Dsus2b6add5

lead back into Fm7
After playing derivative chords it often sounds best to use a setup chord to return to the first main chord harmony for clarity. A bare augmented chord may sound a little to raw bluesy for jazz but you can smooth and soften it by voicing it with the seven under it.

x1211x Caug/Bb
there are multiple places to play this form with the 7th in the bottom

[Mick-7]

I'd just play chord scale stuff like this.....



P.S. - Theoretically speaking, that would be F minor scale > to Db lydian dominant scale (mixolydian with #11th) > to D phrygian minor/Bb major (there's an Eb/b9th in the melody here). These seem to be the most appropriate scales, altered dominant and altered minor scale chords (e.g., D locrian minor for the Dm7) do not suit the tune comping wise.

Stacked 4th chords, as in my example, work well, but sparingly with the dominant chord (Db7) lest it lose it's dominant character.

[Bob_Ross]

The riff is totally killer for this tune, but I'd love to hear some further insight into some of the above for possible other tunes.

I think this is where the thread title and OP become somewhat misleading. As others have noted, the thing to do with the actual tune "Canteloupe Island" is to play the riff...because the riff is the tune (at least as much so as the melody). "Possible other tunes" that might be like "Canteloupe Island" could mean tunes with very few chord changes and a lot of static vamps...or it could mean (other) tunes where the riff is the tune.

For the latter, some respect for the riff is required; maybe not 100% beholden, but if you drift too far away from the riff it ceases to be that tune. For the former, the world's your oyster.

Recognizing whether a tune requires one approach or the other is a learned skill.

It's a guitar-synth.

More specifically, that's a Roland G-303 guitar heavily-modified by the New England Digital company to include an interface for driving their Synclavier, the state-of-the-art digital sampling synthesizer/workstation they made in the late 1970s and 1980s.
Not to be confused with Pat Metheny's other Roland G-303 guitar, which is stock with the Roland hex pickup & electronics for driving a GR-300, Roland's analog synthesizer module introduced in 1980. (The only modification on that instrument that I'm aware of is that it has a new neck, presumably built by Linda Manzer, and installed sometime in the late 1990s.)
Metheny has toured & recorded extensively with both instruments.

[Edit: iirc Metheny's live rig includes a multipin splitter so that the N.E.D. guitar can control either the Synclavier or the GR-300.]

[rpjazzguitar]

Good voicing options, thanks.

I do wonder about the naming though.

x11113 F7#9sus2sus4. This is Bb Eb Ab C G -- and there may be an F in the bass. So, with F as the root, this is 4 b7 b3 5 and 9. Or, reordering, R b3 4 5 b7 9. Looks like a m7(add4) or m11.

x33343 F11sus2. This one is C F Bb Eb G, again with an F in the bass. That's 5 R 4 b7 9. Reordering, R 4 5 b7 9.F9sus. If the 4 was an octave higher I'd think F11(no 3rd).

x5658x F6sus2add#9. This one is D Ab C G, again with a low F. That's R 6 b3 5 9. Or R b3 5 6 9. Fm6/9?
x810811x F7sus4

etc.,

[pauln]

Good voicing options, thanks.

I do wonder about the naming though.

Appreciate your look at them; it would be a wonder if I got any of them right. I've never used books or charts and am not good with conventional naming of chord types... chord naming website fumbles the ball with rootless and unusual voicing.

[pamosmusic]

I'd just play chord scale stuff like this.....



P.S. - Theoretically speaking, that would be F minor scale > to Db lydian dominant scale (mixolydian with #11th) > to D phrygian minor/Bb major (there's an Eb/b9th in the melody here).

F Dorian, boi

[Mick-7]

Re: PaulN's chords, if you're thinking in chord scales (as I do with modal vamp tunes like this), you'd have the following:

1) x11113 = Bb13sus, Fm11/Bb or Ab^7/Bb

2) x33343 = F9sus or Cm11

3) x5658x = Fm6/9, Bb13 or D11b5

4) x810811x = F7sus

The above are all F Dorian minor/Eb Major chords.

5) x89811x = Db13

6) x2325x = G13

5. = Db Mixolydian
6. = G Mixo or Db alt (D melodic minor)

7) x33553x = Dm11/C

8) x55565 = G9sus or Dm11 (same chord form as #2)

9) x77787 = A9sus or Em11

The above are all D Dorian minor/C Major (may clash with the Eb melody).

10) x78710x = C13

11) x1211x = C7#5/Bb or Gb9b5.

10. = D nat. minor/F major

11. = Db or G melodic minor.

[pauln]

I'd just play chord scale stuff like this.....



P.S. - Theoretically speaking, that would be F minor scale > to Db lydian dominant scale (mixolydian with #11th) > to D phrygian minor/Bb major (there's an Eb/b9th in the melody here). These seem to be the most appropriate scales, altered dominant and altered minor scale chords (e.g., D locrian minor for the Dm7) do not suit the tune comping wise.

Stacked 4th chords, as in my example, work well, but sparingly with the dominant chord (Db7) lest it lose it's dominant character.

The riff as double stops
Fm7 xxx11x xxx33x xxx54x xxx33x xxx11x (Bb Lydian Dominant)
Db7 xxx1xx xxx32x xxx44x xxx32x xxx1xx (Db Lydian Dominant)
Dm7 xxx55x xxx55x ........................................ (G Lydian Dominant)

Too much Lydian Dominant?... slower phrasing can conceal it.

[pauln]

Here's the real one...

[Mick-7]

Too much Lydian Dominant?... slower phrasing can conceal it.

If you only wanted to use the lydian dominant scale (don't know why you would), a better match to the Riff and harmony that's simple would be: Ab lydian dominant (Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-Gb) over the Fm & Dm chords, and Db lydian dominant over the Db7 chord.

Re: the Gb(F#) over the Dm chord, D7#9 is sometimes subbed for it.

The Riff contains the notes Ab, Bb and Eb, so I'd tend to use chord scales that include those notes - G lydian dom. is not even close to a match for Dm7.

[pauln]

Is that the only scale you know? If so, a better match to the Riff and harmony that's simple would be:

Ab lydian dominant (Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-Gb) over the Fm & Dm chords, and Db lydian dominant over the Db7 chord.

Re: the , D7#9 is sometimes subbed for it.

The Riff contains the notes Ab, Bb and Eb, so I'd tend to use chord scales that include those notes - G lydian dom. is not even close to a match for Dm7.

Maybe we aren't using "match" the same way; I'm only attending to the harmony, not the riff.

Ab lydian dom has the sound of F#aug, barely OK for Dm7, not good for Fm7
Db lydian dominant over the Db7 chord... of course.
"Gb(F#) over the Dm chord" - what are you referring to?
G lydian dom is same as D Dorian with a major 7, good for Dm7

[Mick-7]

Maybe we aren't using "match" the same way; I'm only attending to the harmony, not the riff.

Ab lydian dom has the sound of F#aug, barely OK for Dm7, not good for Fm7
Db lydian dominant over the Db7 chord... of course.
"Gb(F#) over the Dm chord" - what are you referring to?
G lydian dom is same as D Dorian with a major 7, good for Dm7

The harmony supports the riff and improvisation on it.

Ab Lydian Dominant = Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb-F-Gb.

Over Fm7 = F dorian minor, with a b9th (Gb)
Over Dm7 = Locrian minor, plus the maj.3rd (F#/Gb). As I said, D7#9 is sometimes subbed for Dm7 in this tune.

G lydian dominant = G-A-B-C#-D-E-F-G - the C# & E can conflict with the melody/riff. The plain dominant scale, i.e., C major, or C melodic minor (a.k.a., F lydian dominant) would be better. I could see using the lydian dominant scale for the Db7 chord (Db lyd) & Dm7 chord (but F lyd not G lyd). Just Eb major over the Fm7 chord is fine.