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I'm looking at two tunes: The Man I Love (1924) and I'm Getting Sentimental Over You (1933).
In both tunes, from bars 3 to 4, there's this really nice progression: a v chord (minor) going into a VI7 chord.
First 8 bars of TMIL:
Eb7 | Eb-7 | Bb- | C7
Ab- | Bb | Eb, G7 | Abmaj7, Bb7
First 8 bars of IGSOY:
F | E7 | C- | D7
G7 | C7 | F | C7
What is this v to VI7 movement called?
(song is originally in F, but the singer has pitched it down to D to suit his voice)
Last edited by brent.h; 12-30-2025 at 11:33 PM.
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12-30-2025 12:45 PM
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Well, I suppose the Real Book would make the TMIL progression: | Gm7b5 (= Bbm6) | C7 | Fm7b5 (= Abm6) | Bb7 | - because, as we know, every such progression is really only a IIm7-V7 in disguise.
Originally Posted by brent.h
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The Man I Love is SUCH a beautiful progression, and as far as I know quite unique in the standards rep. I'm gonna have a proper gander at that, cos played it the other night and it's so pretty. Originally Posted by brent.h
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THIS was the very thing I was afraid of the most. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Well, I suppose the Real Book would make the TMIL progression: | Gm7b5 (= Bbm6) | C7 | Fm7b5 (= Abm6) | Bb7 | - because, as we know, every such progression is really only a IIm7-V7 in disguise.
The text below was in my initial post, but I removed it because it might be too restrictive:
"Please explain this like I'm five without using ii-V analysis; I don't feel it's appropriate for these older tunes. So this question is more for those of you who are familiar with older/classical theory. Tell me what is going on here in bars 3-4."
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I make the chords in the sheet music:First 8 bars of IGSOY:
F | E7 | C- | D7
G7 | C7 | F | C7
What is this v to VI7 movement called?
F E7#5 | Cm/Eb D7 | G7 etc
So I think this progression is quite closely related to Days of Guns and Roses. This is a progression that moves from the home key to tonicising the second degree of the key. F major to G minor.
F | Cm6/Eb | D7 | G-7
In this we can see that we have what is basically a II-V-I into Gm, albeit with a pretty bass line
F | Am7b5/Eb | D7 | G-7
So the difference here is we are ending up on the majorized G7 chord not the expected G-7.
We can complete the chromatic bassline down to D7 if we add in an E chord of some kind. Could be diatonic to F ...
F E-7b5 | Cm/Eb D7 | G7
But if we lay in a G# between the A in the F and the G in the Cm/Eb, we end up with a chromatic half step. Meanwhile, the C is sustained through all four chords and we end up with E7#5. The chord is diatonic apart from that G#.
F E7#5 | Cm/Eb D7 | G7
another (simpler?) way of thinking of it is pure voice leading.
A-G#-G-F#
and
F-E-Eb-D
Descending chromatic major thirds in the bottom voices.
Against a pedal C
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What do you mean by older/classical theory? Just curious. Originally Posted by brent.h
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Guns and Roses. Nice slip! Hehe! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I make the chords in the sheet music:
F E7#5 | Cm/Eb D7 | G7 etc
So I think this progression is quite closely related to Days of Guns and Roses. This is a progression that moves from the home key to tonicising the second degree of the key. F major to G minor.
F | Cm6/Eb | D7 | G-7
In this we can see that we have what is basically a II-V-I into Gm, albeit with a pretty bass line
F | Am7b5/Eb | D7 | G-7
So the difference here is we are ending up on the majorized G7 chord not the expected G-7.
We can complete the chromatic bassline down to D7 if we add in an E chord of some kind. Could be diatonic to F ...
F E-7b5 | Cm/Eb D7 | G7
But if we lay in a G# between the A in the F and the G in the Cm/Eb, we end up with a chromatic half step. Meanwhile, the C is sustained through all four chords and we end up with E7#5. The chord is diatonic apart from that G#.
F E7#5 | Cm/Eb D7 | G7
another (simpler?) way of thinking of it is pure voice leading.
A-G#-G-F#
and
F-E-Eb-D
Descending chromatic major thirds in the bottom voices.
Against a pedal C
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
...every such progression is really only a IIm7-V7 in disguise.Dang it, it's kind of a ii-V after all. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
My concern was that this ii-V thinking or two-fivecation was strictly a bebop thing, and that understanding the 2 tunes I listed above from that bebop perspective might miss something that the composers intended.
I don't have the terminology. Some kind of cadence or something? Not well-versed in this. Originally Posted by James W
Yeah, I think this analysis makes the most sense to me without the ii-V thinking. Just chromatic movement. Thanks! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
It's very unique. And bruh, that obbligato, WOW, see 0:59 below. I was thinking that this bit can be played as a proper solo. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
(originally written in Eb, but singer does it in Bb)
Last edited by brent.h; 12-30-2025 at 11:36 PM.
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Christian posted the Real Book chord changes of this tune (one version of them anyway, another one had the IIm7-V7 changes I joked about).
Here is the "official" piano score....
F Major, A section:
|| F(7) | Fm(7) | Eb6 or Cm/Eb | D7 | Gm7b5* | C7 | F - F+ | B^7/F - C7 :||
* Gm7b5 - Interesting, no 3rd in the chord but it's in the melody.
Last edited by Mick-7; 12-31-2025 at 02:16 AM.
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This is so much easier to read lol. Where did you get it? Originally Posted by Mick-7
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Musescore - they try to make you buy it but the free preview page can be printed. Originally Posted by brent.h
Official Version of The Man I Love Sheet Music by George Gershwin for Piano | MuseScore.com
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thats the spirit Originally Posted by Mick-7
... but the free preview page can be printed.
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I've just come back from playing a lunchtime gig with a quartet at a city restaurant. My daughter was the singer and one of the tunes we performed was Don't Blame Me in her key (F rather than C). The opening bars are not a million miles away from this progression, albeit with a different harmonic rhythm: || F^7 Aø7 | D7#5 | Gø7 C7 | F^7 Originally Posted by Mick-7
Christian posted the Real Book chord changes of this tune (one version of them anyway, another one had the IIm7-V7 changes I joked about).
Here is the "official" piano score....
F Major, A section:
|| F(7) | Fm(7) | Eb6 or Cm/Eb | D7 | Gm7b5* | C7 | F - F+ | B^7/F - C7 :||
* Gm7b5 - Interesting, no 3rd in the chord but it's in the melody.
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You have to be a bit careful with what you click on. Musescore are absolute sharks for signing you up for subscriptions you don't want if you click thoughtlessly, like I did. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Musescore - they try to make you buy it but the free preview page can be printed.
Official Version of The Man I Love Sheet Music by George Gershwin for Piano | MuseScore.com
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I didn't post nuffink bruv Originally Posted by Mick-7
Looks slightly simplified from the original piano score, but the copy from sheet music singer has pencil all over is, so this is certainly clearer. Also different key (F not Eb) which makes it easier to compare to IGSOY.
Anyway, looking at the dots, you have the same oblique idea going on as IGSOY. The C stays constant through the first four bars.
The main difference here is that the bass line isn't chromatic. The middle voice A-Ab-G-F#-F is quite a big feature.
The melody drives this big time. You have the same phrase repeating, with the answering phrase being sequenced down the scale each time. It's interesting that the melody has such a strong mixolydian quality. This is the blues/folk quality that I think is where the GASB tradition veers away a bit from the European influence. It's like the way you often get pentatonic influenced melodies like Indiana, and so on.
The bass line that you often see (which the piano score doesn't quite have) F-F-Eb-D-Db-C that fits the first is not too far away a chromatic bassline (one note missing)F Major, A section:
|| F(7) | Fm(7) | Eb6 or Cm/Eb | D7 | Gm7b5* | C7 | F - F+ | B^7/F - C7 :||
F7 F-7 Cm6/Eb D7 G-7b5/Db C7
The inverted -6/-7b5 chords are really pretty. I've heard them called the Schumann chord, but they'll always make me think of All By Myself (which of course is a lift from Rachmaninoff.) They come up a lot in songbook harmony, kind of lost from most jazz charts.
Functionally, you do have that Am7b5 D7 Gm7b5 C7 F thing going on (the tail of it is just a turnaround thing), which is similar to a number of tunes. But that mode change F7 to F-7 - quite unusual. That's coming from the melody and that chromatic middle voice.
As a thought experiment, if you took the Ab in the middle voice and combined with an E bass for the second chord, you'd get
F7 E7#5 Cm/Eb D7 etc. But the melody has that Eb...
So many GASB standards chord changes are based on variations of descending chromatic lines in the harmony. There's a million ways of deriving chords from it. I think the chords come from putting a strong (usually diatonic) melody with chromatic counter melodies in the piano arrangement. You see it all over.
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A sequence of two minor II V's also makes me think of The Best Thing for You. Originally Posted by PMB
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Tunes have so much to teach us! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Also Woody 'n You. The difference being that the minor ii-V cascading sequence always remains intact in Gillespie's tune whereas the m7b5s are often ironed out to regular minor chords in older standards like Don't Blame Me if the melody allows such a change. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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By the way, there are 4 pages of different lead sheets for this tune on Musescore, including this bombastic one shown in the video brent posted - gives me a headache just reading it.
The Man I Love - arr. George Gershwin Sheet Music for Piano (Solo) | MuseScore.com
And it's amusing that my joke about the Real Book converting all available chord changes to II-V's was true:
The Man I Love Sheet Music by George Gershwin for Piano, Vocals | MuseScore.com
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