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Im kind of Jazz guitar noob.Ive been playing for decades just not much jazz.
My question to more experienced players is: Ive spent about 6 weeks memorizing Dirk’s Fly Me to the Moon and Autumn Leaves melodies and solo. My hope is that it will help me internalize jazz phrasing and achieve a jazzy sound in my improv. My plan is to memorize all of his stuff.
is this a good idea? Will it help me to internalize jazz language??. ThxLast edited by dbwbass; 02-04-2025 at 04:10 PM.
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02-04-2025 03:09 PM
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I guess it couldn't hurt. But, what do you think you'll be able to do with that? I'm not sure what "...internalize jazz language" means.
Originally Posted by dbwbass
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Sort of hate to admit it but I'm not familiar with his instructional materials.... Originally Posted by dbwbass
"I've been playing for decades just not much jazz."
Before offering any advice, it would be helpful to know what sort of music you've been playing?
Also, your comments imply that the main deficiency of your improvised lines is their sound or phrasing rather than their content. My guess is that's an oversimplification?
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I mean, Im hoping Dirk’s sound will rub off on me if I play his stuff enough.
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[QUOTE=Mick-7;1391613]Sort of hate to admit it but I'm not familiar with his instructional materials....
"I've been playing for decades just not much jazz."
Before offering any advice, it would be helpful to know what sort of music you've been playing?
Also, your comments imply that the main deficiency of your improvised lines is their sound or phrasing rather than their content. My guess is that's an oversimplification?[it would be helpful to know what sort of music you've been playing?]
Ive been playing mostly, rock, pop. Yes, my lines are deficient in phrasing and content. I thought maybe a good first step would be to memorize the material he offers up on this site
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It's still not clear where you want to end up but, I wouldn't spend any more time there. Originally Posted by dbwbass
At the end of this, the only think you'll be better at is regurgitating his music back.
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i regurgitate band in a box solos every day
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Starting out, I think learning melodies of tunes is excellent, and learning exemplary solos that contain a lot of classic jazz phrasing is also great. You could do a lot worse. One of my best periods of musical growth came from literally memorizing about 10 solos composed by Jimmy Raney. I learned a lot about how lines flow, how lines link together logically in a solo. That's better than just learning "licks." It's great to learn how a whole 32 measures worth of improvisation by a good player fit together and flow through tensions and resolutions, building to a high point.
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well thats awesome. Gotta check that out Originally Posted by voxo
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thats what ive been thinking. But it takes a long time for me to memorize the material but Im hoping it will be worth it Next, after i get it down maybe ill start shifting it to other keys Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Dirks stuff will help. You want to get jazz language any way possible at the start, beg, borrow and steal.
What kind of jazz do you like?
After Dirks material you could think about learning other solos by ear. You could post what tunes you are thinking about learning here and get advice if it’s going to be too hard. Also be learning tunes all the time. Check out the Just The Melody thread for an idea of what that looks like.
Also, post a clip and look for clips of the people giving you advice. You should prioritize advice from people you want to sound like.
Not trying to put other people down, but you’re going to get A LOT of advice and you need to filter it somehow.
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All good advice. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Also noting Lawson's call out of Jimmy Raney. Jimmy Raney has some great etude-type stuff out there (Aebersold, maybe?) and he is, of course, one of the all-timers -- as well as a guy who taught quite a bit.
You also absolutely can't go wrong with Grant Green and Charlie Christian. You should pick out stuff by ear as much as possible, but if time is a factor, try some Charlie Christian. There are lots of his solos written out here, and generally seem to be pretty accurate. Lots of his are blueses and all (except Air Mail Special and Solo Flight) are quite short. Everyone anyone on this thread or any other thread ever recommends you check out will have cited Charlie Christian as a major influence at some period in their development.
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Assign a chord number to each chord. Think numbers, instead of chord types. This way you can transpose any song to any key. Analyze a tune in numbers as well. What note of the chord or what scale is this note from? It’s how I began piano. Same applies to guitar. Originally Posted by dbwbass
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Yes, and look at certain contexts, like ii-V-I progressions, and look at the phrases used to negotiate those. Try them in other tunes, or swap around lines from similar harmonic contexts in the same solo (with transposition as needed). Originally Posted by dbwbass
Get the sound of the phrases in your ear and imprinted with your muscle memory as well. I'm only a middling player, but the best things I have are ideas I got that way.
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Alas, I'm not one of the more experienced players of which you speak, so take what I say with the pinch of salt it undoubtedly deserves. Nevertheless, I do have a similar background to yourself, so may have some views that will help. Originally Posted by dbwbass
First of all, I think Dirk's material, his lessons, articles, lists, his entire site (beyond the forum), the commercial stuff he's produced, etc. is all wonderful and valuable. I think we should all do what we can, when we can to support him, and I've bought many of his books / lessons with this in mind. But even the free stuff is great, and probably (if we're honest, and work through it all diligently) all one needs.
Secondly, I think learning melodies (and chord changes) and then solos is an excellent way to start (and continue forever more) to get a feel for this art. Its what the masters did, and do. Just keep at it. As others have said, try transcribing yourself - there's nothing wrong with using existing transcriptions, but having a go yourself is (for me, at least) more beneficial, and such things stay in my memory much longer and more easily than when someone else has done the work. I sometimes work thing out by ear and then use existing transcriptions to check my homework, as it were.
There's another stage as well - which is to look at what you've transcribed / learned, and to analyse why it works and sounds the way it does. Maybe steal some licks (welcome to my world - as I've said often on this forum, I'm a licks player and this is where I get my licks) and reuse them wherever you can. Learn different licks over different chord types, maybe some ii-V-Is. All that stuff. And don't just focus on guitar - I love early jazz, and swing (I'll probably get to be-bop one day) and there are some great solos on those early records that aren't too "out there" and aren't too fast (I'm the slowest guitar player, slowest thinker, slowest learner on this site), but few of them are guitar solos. Charlie Christian, though, as said by others, is a fine starting place.
The forum is obviously a superb resource, too. There are some wonderful players here, some great teachers, some gigging professionals (and many semi-professionals) and lots of very experienced amateurs. But never forget you have to learn to crawl before you can stand, and stand before you can walk. And walk before you can run. A lot of the players here are out there sprinting and some of us are still trying to sit upright.
Derek
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Thank you Derek and to all the others who have replied. Im pushing forward of course! Similar to Digger, Im more of an early jazz lover with touches of Bebop sprinkled in. I just needed a little encouragement and a checkin with others who are more experienced. Thx again
David
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From my point of view honestly - and perhaps it's biased - you should get the very best players in your ears to emulate. The ones making noted records who are out there playing - or who used to. And not just guitar players (And that almost guarantees originality - so an added perk). I know that may up the difficulty but just take pieces of them you can handle and work it out. Start you way with the less difficult things and work your way up Originally Posted by dbwbass
This was mentioned 30+ years ago but I still think it's valid
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Steal from EVERYBODY you like.
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Charlie Christian. That's the answer. Swing to bop, baby. Originally Posted by dbwbass
That site I posted earlier has dozens of his transcriptions. Learn one or two from the written transcriptions and get your fingers around some of those sounds, then I think you'd be surprised how quickly transcribing on your own can go.
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Yeah. And Dirk is wonderful and a wonderful player, but for what it's worth, I don't think he'd disagree with this at all. Originally Posted by RaneyJR
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