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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by DS71 View Post
    Any must have books/collections of Bach for guitar? I've enjoyed playing his music quite a bit over the years.
    This is THE book to get

    http://WG100 - The Solo Lute Works o..._WT65AbKQ537E0
    White belt
    My Youtube

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by DS71 View Post
    Any must have books/collections of Bach for guitar? I've enjoyed playing his music quite a bit over the years.
    Have a look back through the thread - several early posts already covered this.

  4. #53
    I love reading Bach's music too. If you're into reading his chorales maybe the Bach Sonatas/Partitas
    esp. Manuel Barrueco's editions. I'm reading Manuel Barrueco's version of the Fugue BWV 1003

  5. #54

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    Very nice...any Bach partitas/sonatas that would adapt well to flat pick or perhaps hybrid style?

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by alltunes View Post
    Very nice...any Bach partitas/sonatas that would adapt well to flat pick or perhaps hybrid style?
    violin and cello repertoire is our best bet for plectrum or hybrid styles.

  7. #56

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    The violin and cello repertoire sounds superb on the guitar. often better than on the original instruments. the Chaconne is a guitar piece, in fact, based on a typical Spanish progression.

  8. #57

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    My wife laughs at me when I try to play the Bach cello prelude 1 on guitar (she plays cello) so I make sure she's out.

    You need a seven string for that one, really.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-23-2018 at 08:08 PM.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    The violin and cello repertoire sounds superb on the guitar
    It can do, yes



    often better than on the original instruments.
    You are off your rocker.

    the Chaconne is a guitar piece, in fact, based on a typical Spanish progression.
    Yeah, Chaconne might be Spanish, or maybe even Caribbean or South America, no one seems to be absolutely certain. Chaconnes always have a repeated ground (bass or chords), but were originally major key and bawdy in nature. Monteverdi introduced the minor tonality and the descending lamento bass, apparently, and gave it a more serious tone.

    Another distinguishing feature of the Chaconne is its triple time meter and accent on the second beat. You can still hear this in the Bach Chaconne.

    I would urge anyone interested in the history to check out Alex Ross's (the Rest is Noise) article:
    Alex Ross: The Rest Is Noise: chacona
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-23-2018 at 08:20 PM.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Really the guitar can't hold a candle can it?
    Really, it can. Period.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It can do, yes





    You are off your rocker.


    you are extraordinarily narrow-minded, and may also be deaf.

  12. #61

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    Well "better than than the original instruments" might be subjective, but many of the Bach works for solo instruments (Cello and violin, in addition of course to those for the lute) sound great on the guitar. Some lie well on the fretboard, and some can be made to work with a key change or perhaps a lowered 6th string. The violin and cello works have movements that are nearly all single lines, and can be played with a pick as well as fingers.

    A fun exercise for the cello suites (for example #3 in C) is to simply read them as though they are in the the treble clef, adjusting the chromatic notes - this puts that particular suite into A, where it fits well on the fretboard.

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    you are extraordinarily narrow-minded, and may also be deaf.
    You don’t like Julian Bream then? :-)

    Cello is kind of the best sounding instrument though. You would have to be deaf or mad not to hear that.

    Modern guitar though, it’s a nice sound. Just not as nice as baroque guitar or lute, the former of which is not an option for Bach.

  14. #63

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    Anyway ronjazz, in an attempt to widen my narrow minded horizons why don’t you post a version of Bach piece that you really like pref not one of the obvious versions Bream, Segovia or Williams, that I might have heard.

    BTW I’m not entirely serious. I just like to challenge this air of legitimacy around Segovian classical guitar which I find a bit pretentious (or alternatively I have a childish desire to annoy classical guitarists.)

    Although I don’t listen to much classical guitar tbh. I make the exception for Bream and sometimes hear modern players I like on the radio.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2018 at 06:53 AM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by cmajor9 View Post
    Well "better than than the original instruments" might be subjective, but many of the Bach works for solo instruments (Cello and violin, in addition of course to those for the lute) sound great on the guitar. Some lie well on the fretboard, and some can be made to work with a key change or perhaps a lowered 6th string. The violin and cello works have movements that are nearly all single lines, and can be played with a pick as well as fingers.
    They do sound good if you simply play the notes, that’s the beauty of it.

    Yeah I remember spending hours playing through them for my own entertainment. Bach is always an education...

    The way a jazz musician can use these pieces is different from a classical musician.

    As a performance of Bach’s music Gilads interpretation of the two part invention obviously didn’t impress Jonah (who I regard as a bit of a Bach aficionado) but obviously is very impressive guitar playing and a great exercise for him as a jazz player. All these things have their value.

    A fun exercise for the cello suites (for example #3 in C) is to simply read them as though they are in the the treble clef, adjusting the chromatic notes - this puts that particular suite into A, where it fits well on the fretboard.
    Ha I must try that
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-25-2018 at 06:57 AM.

  16. #65

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    Sorry, Christian, I don't feel it necessary to prove anything to someone who's already made up his mind. I've studied with Williams, Ghiglia and Lagoya, as well as Pass, Martino and Kessell, and none of them felt it necessary to "challenge the legitimacy" of Segovian classical guitar, whatever that is or was long ago. Bach on the guitar is the envy of many violinists and cellists I know, by the way. If, at some point, you decide to be an adult about it, try listening to Paul Galbraith's Bach, along with Bream, Williams and the other pretentious masters who have made world-wide reputations for themselves.

  17. #66

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    Believe me most cellist or violinsts do not even know that somebody plays (or ever played) Bach on guitar!!!! (Sego- what? Segovia? Oh it's a nice plice where we had great gazpacho last summer!)

    As per playing Bach or Handel or Mozart on guitar I remember an Interview of Barthold Kuijken (by the way one of the greatest modern baroque players, and an author of a great book)....

    He was asked what baroque transverse repertory he thinks is good to play on 'flauto di voce' (for reference 'flauto di voce' is the baroque recorder in D that allegedly was invented to perform transverse baroque flute (also in D) repertory without transposition - which was usual in alto recorder in F).
    And he said: None...
    The astonished interviewr began to ask why... and Kuijken explained that diapason is not the only thing that needed for playing this repertory... that 'flauto di voce' in many cases would sound like a mezzo that tries to sing high soprano etc. etc.

    To me there is a lot of misunderstanding in performance of Bach on guitar on elctric guitar, on jazz guitar, dance, hip-hop, gipsy, rockabilly guitar...

    It's all like playing D-minor Toccata and Fugue on anything that sounds... the piece that is one of the weakest Bach and in my opinion is most probably very young Bach (or may be even fake).

    You know Segovia did not say: let's all play Bach on guitar. Segovia did not play Classical guitar. He was the only guy who played at all.. he is continuation of Spanish guitar tradition - to which neither great master Bream, no mediocracy Williams have nothing to do.

    Segovia is the instrument himself.

    After Segovia only Ghiglia seems to be able to make me listen to this instrumen and forget about it.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Sorry, Christian, I don't feel it necessary to prove anything to someone who's already made up his mind. I've studied with Williams, Ghiglia and Lagoya, as well as Pass, Martino and Kessell, and none of them felt it necessary to "challenge the legitimacy" of Segovian classical guitar
    Of course not, they have/had better things to do. I at present, do not.

    , whatever that is or was long ago. Bach on the guitar is the envy of many violinists and cellists I know,
    None of the ones I know TBH.

    by the way. If, at some point, you decide to be an adult about it, try listening to Paul Galbraith's Bach, along with Bream, Williams and the other pretentious masters who have made world-wide reputations for themselves.
    I grew up with Julian Bream's recordings. He can make a case for Bach, Weiss etc on the guitar, and those recordings were my introduction to those pieces, but in general I would rather hear that music on the instrument it was written for. Bream, Segovia I make an exception for because they are GENIUS level musicians...

    In the case of Sanz, Visee, etc, I can no longer enjoy this music on the modern guitar (excepting Bream who can play anything on guitar and make it sound good) having heard it on the 5 course baroque guitar with the appropriate technique - it just sounds better. All those campanelas effects with the octave 5th course, rasgueados and so on.

    As far as the 19th century rep, and Villa Lobos goes, that's obviously great on classical guitar. But the repertoire - excepting maybe Villa Lobos - is obviously very lightweight compared to the core instruments of the classical tradition, it's a problem... It's not the stuff that I seek out to listen to, but I enjoy it if it's on the radio. Basically, to be a classical guitarist, you have to love that stuff enough to dedicate your life to it...

    In terms of later 20th century rep - well you have the Latin American stuff, and composers like Takemitsu who have an unusual sympathy with the instrument, but truth be told, it's bloody hard to write for and that thins the pool of composers who are up for the challenge especially those who are not themselves guitarists. We all know that Britten found it a real struggle - said 'never again.' And here was a man content to sit down and study a harp manual in order to write a Ceremony of Carols. The piano and bowed strings remain the centre of classical music, and it's not likely to change...

    People get quite worthy about classical guitar, and there's a sense that it's 'doing it properly' but in reality really it's a small musical town, just like jazz guitar. Some people, such as yourself really love it, and that's cool. I don't.

    The long and the short of it is that I am not really a guitar buff. If there's some great guitar playing on a thing, cool, but if not, I'm more that happy to listen to music with no guitar.

    But that's not to minimise the technical difficulty or achievement of making that stuff sing on the guitar. I respect the work that goes into it...
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-26-2018 at 10:55 AM.

  19. #68

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    But I'm always happy to be proved wrong :-)

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    But I'm always happy to be proved wrong :-)
    At my conservatiore the Violin teacher held in highest regard was an American woman called Gerri Gibson.

    I played her a Bach Suite one day in a performance class, it was not a particularly good performance.

    She said 'When you hear the suites played on the guitar you wonder why you bother on the violin'.

    It is good to be envious of the strength of other instruments. The piano terrifies me as so much is possible or even easy that is beyond my reach on guitar.

    D.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    At my conservatiore the Violin teacher held in highest regard was an American woman called Gerri Gibson.

    I played her a Bach Suite one day in a performance class, it was not a particularly good performance.

    She said 'When you hear the suites played on the guitar you wonder why you bother on the violin'.

    It is good to be envious of the strength of other instruments. The piano terrifies me as so much is possible or even easy that is beyond my reach on guitar.

    D.
    Ha! Maybe.

    The intonation must be a nightmare...

  22. #71

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    christian, you've done an admirable job of proving yourself wrong. saved me the trouble. you should get out more.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    christian, you've done an admirable job of proving yourself wrong. saved me the trouble. you should get out more.
    How have I been proven wrong in my subjective opinion? How have you been proven right in yours? I still think you have made too grand a claim...

    As much as one might admire particular artists in the classical guitar world, guitar remains a footnote in the repertoire... An often beautiful footnote.

    Bach is not really for the guitar. Unfortunately for us. Some pieces can be made to work on it. Great talents can make them sound great. But there's really only a handful of pieces. And usually in the wrong keys.

    It's just the way it is. The composer's intention is somewhat sacrificed for the privelage of playing Bach's music (of course modern pianists do this all the time, as well, to be fair.)

    Other factors come into play. But I do honestly prefer the sound of the lute, say over the guitar for this music. And the cello is pretty hard to beat. Nasty scratchy out of tune violins, sure... But hang on:



    Doesn't mean I think someone should not play Bach on the guitar... But think about what you have said above. Segovia or Bream does not sound *better* than Heifetz or Cassals.

  24. #73

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    Find me a guitar performance of Bach better than that Vengerov and I'll eat my words :-)

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Find me a guitar performance of Bach better than that Vengerov and I'll eat my words :-)
    There is no competition when it comes to preference, best to enjoy and share.



    I'll always have a soft spot for the performance above. Totally non PC and soulful to the point of near indulgence, I LOVE it. First magic moment comes at the 1 min mark (you won't hear it if you don't listen from the start though.). What he does at 3.32 still haunts my dreams.

    I like Nicholas Galoses on Naxos, very few lapses from clarity (one big one in the Gm Presto but boy there are a lot of notes on that recording) , mind you Colin Cooper claimed it was out of tune in the in his review...

    I've never heard anyone play the Chaconne in a way that suggest to me they might be completely happy with their performance. Most lose me, Edin Karamazov proves on his (composite) recording of that piece that a compelling narrative may be made with not so much in the way of virtuoso technique.


    Hilary Hahn nails the Gm Presto...

    You sir are of course entitled to your preference, there is no competition really.

    D.

  26. #75

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    Not sure if you read my post quite right... I was expecting a mega guitar performance and got cello lol.

    Find me a guitar performance of Bach better than that Vengerov and I'll eat my words :-)
    A good performance of the cello suites is pretty mega...

    I'm not saying Vengerov is even the best violin performance (I do think it's pretty badass) - I'm saying that a high level performance of the piece on the violin has a completely different quality to the same piece on the guitar, and I have to say, I feel it has greater depth emotionally. And I passionately feel, with absolutely no way of backing this up intellectually, this is intended by the composer.

    I DO think Bach should be soulful. But I think all music should be soulful.

  27. #76

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    I know this is off topic, but the sound of those campanellas and rasgeuados at 0:43 makes me fall in love with the baroque guitar



    I feel that some of this very spanish quality of the baroque actually comes out on the lute in a way it doesn't (for me) on modern guitar



    I don't know why this should be lol... I think it's the Arabic tinge of the lute... You can still hear the oud in it... Double courses and deep slack bass strings...


  28. #77

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    I can enjoy listening to Bach on just about anything.


  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I can enjoy listening to Bach on just about anything.

    Chris Thile is a witch

  30. #79

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    A certain forum member has also been known to get up to this kind of thing.


  31. #80

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    I suppose it makes a certain amount of sense playing that music on a tenor banjo because of the tuning so you have that low C.... That's pretty awesome playing and musicianship...

  32. #81

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  33. #82

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    As per arrangement...

    Many things become important and signufucant when you get deeper into the subject..

    The speculation about 'abstract mathematical beauty' of Bach come to nothing once you really hear and dig his Cantatas, Passions, Oratorio. The man who paint text euth such an intensive and passionate musucal colours of meaning cannot suddenly become a 'math teacher' when lyrics is gone.

    When you listen to this very convincing performance you really get that some things matter but only after deep personal musical experience... two violas and cello da spalla bring important colours in this performance with great performers' musicality of course.
    Kuijken family is one of my favourite HIPP group. Uncompromized passion intelligence musicality... and as a result... living music.. not reconstructed... but just born and living as it was in great romaromantic ntic performers' era


  34. #83

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    I think it is fabulous that that girl stood up and played the Chaconne so well.

    I do feel however that a tenuto between beats two and three for no discernible musical reason in SO many non structural bars is at the very least questionable.

    But then again, as I said above, I have never heard this piece played well in such a way as I could believe that the player might be entirely satisfied with the results.

    I have however heard it played 'badly' and in some cases could easily imagine that the performer might completely at ease with the results.

    NOONE finishes this music.

    D.

  35. #84

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    HUUUUUGE VIOLAS

    Bach is kind of.... OK, when I did classical singing. I was a Baritone.

    Bach gives you just enough rope to hang yourself. It's brutal. It's not Handel. But you can't say it's un-vocal, because if you were good you could sing it.

    That's how it is. I bet it's the same on strings.

  36. #85

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    I found Chris Thile's opinion on bowing vs plectrum interesting, from this interview:

    Bradley Klein: I've seen you using Blue Chip picks in recent years, and you endorse a triangle that they make.

    Chris Thile: I love my Blue Chip picks, but sometimes I envy violinists. Hell, I envy violinists all the time — what with the amount of sound they can produce — but those bows... the amount of work that has gone into bow manufacturing. Sartory and Tourte, and Peccatte... those are bows that perform their function as well as anything made by humans can. I love how Michel at Wegen, and Matthew (Goins) at Blue Chip care so much about pick design. They're doing a killer job. But I hope they keep pushing, because I think there's another level. I don't know if it's a materials thing or shape thing, but it hasn't hit the level of sophistication that bows have by a long shot.

    Bradley Klein: I blame you for pointing out that mandolin and guitar players are smacking a piece of plastic against a metal wire with every note. Now I can't get that out of my head.
    Chris Thile: (laughs ruefully) I spend a significant amount of every day trying to disguise that fact.

  37. #86

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    I remember when Hale Gabri Selasi nearly missed the olympics because of terrible blisters in his feet.

    He had to keep wearing them trainers for the sponsorship money, in reality he preferred to run in barefoot which is the condition that evolution solved and the further from which we get the more problems we have.

    Cutting Edge Plectrum Technology(TM) like sports shoe, soap, bleach, detergent, oil, toothpaste and toothbrush technology, is absolute bollocks in my opinion. But there are adverts all over with 'science' explaining why you should spend a fortune on the latest thing even though the old thing was perfect....

    I dislike strongly advertising blurb masquerading as enthusiasm. Noone who knows how to use one blames the pick for their sound. Purple Dunlops are as good now as they ever were . At around two for a dollar however there isn't spare money to bribe artists with which is good because amateurs don't get fleeced.

    I don't begrudge Chris his free boxes of plectrums and whatever kickbacks he gets, but I do dislike having my intelligence insulted and advertising copy pretending to be interviews.

    He's spot on about one thing though, avoiding an inflexible and unvarying attack is a lot of what practice is about. That is what technique is for, technology and bogus 'breakthrough' really can't help you pay attention properly which is the real issue.

    Actually maybe it can, in the case of hearing aids.

    The saddest thing of all is that once someone has been tricked into wasting money they aim their outrage not at the company who fooled them, instead they become become staunch and vocal advocates for the product and enraged when their pet folly is questioned. Usually be some fool like me who should have the sense to merely laugh up his sleeve and keep his mouth shut.


    D.
    Last edited by Freel; 08-03-2018 at 11:30 AM.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    I remember when Hale Gabri Selasi nearly missed the olympics because of terrible blisters in his feet.

    He had to keep wearing them trainers for the sponsorship money, in reality he preferred to run in barefoot which is the condition that evolution solved and the further from which we get the more problems we have.

    Cutting Edge Plectrum Technology(TM) like sports shoe, soap, bleach, detergent, oil, toothpaste and toothbrush technology, is absolute bollocks in my opinion. But there are adverts all over with 'science' explaining why you should spend a fortune on the latest thing even though the old thing was perfect....

    I dislike strongly advertising blurb masquerading as enthusiasm. Noone who knows how to use one blames the pick for their sound. Purple Dunlops are as good now as they ever were . At around two for a dollar however there isn't spare money to bribe artists with which is good because amateurs don't get fleeced.

    I don't begrudge Chris his free boxes of plectrums and whatever kickbacks he gets, but I do dislike having my intelligence insulted and advertising copy pretending to be interviews.

    He's spot on about one thing though, avoiding an inflexible and unvarying attack is a lot of what practice is about. That is what technique is for, technology and bogus 'breakthrough' really can't help you pay attention properly which is the real issue.

    Actually maybe it can, in the case of hearing aids.

    The saddest thing of all is that once someone has been tricked into wasting money they aim their outrage not at the company who fooled them, instead they become become staunch and vocal advocates for the product and enraged when their pet folly is questioned. Usually be some fool like me who should have the sense to merely laugh up his sleeve and keep his mouth shut.


    D.
    Blue Chips are nice.

    A lot of jazz guitarists seem to actively work towards an unvarying pick attack.

  39. #88

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    Getting back to Bach. Many scholars believe Bach studied the solo violin music of Biber to prepare for his solo violin compositions,in particular they draw a parallel between the Chaconne and Biber's Passacaglia in the same key.
    Here is a Passacaglia I improvised freely a few months ago which I don't think I shared here before....I may have been in a huff.

    For some reason it's in gm , it is also a Solea in d phrygian,my apologies for the cadenza but the ear wants what the ear wants, and I need to accept whatever comes along or I flounder.

    Last edited by Freel; 08-04-2018 at 07:32 AM.

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    I think it is fabulous that that girl stood up and played the Chaconne so well.

    I do feel however that a tenuto between beats two and three for no discernible musical reason in SO many non structural bars is at the very least questionable.

    But then again, as I said above, I have never heard this piece played well in such a way as I could believe that the player might be entirely satisfied with the results.

    I have however heard it played 'badly' and in some cases could easily imagine that the performer might completely at ease with the results.

    NOONE finishes this music.

    D.
    I think she plays way better that pathetic Vengerov's record quoted in this thread.

    I do not understand critical comments like yours about tenuto... you cannot criticize such a complex piece of music in such a way.
    It's like idiontic commenct on youtube: the tempo is too fast (too slow).

    Music (and especially music of such level) is complex piece of art thata contains many different semantic levels which work all together in good performance in a way that it is impossible just to say: well that's fine - only tenuto is the problem...

    It is all interconnected.. if you know and understand this music, if you hear how it works, and hear what it tells about... how deep it goes.

    i am sure that Chaconne is one of the most fundamental Christian music... it surprisingly comprises what Bach has expressed in his vocal works, and in 2 volumes of instrumental New Testament.. WTK.
    But the Chaconne is mostly connected with the period after Christ's death, his descension into the Hell, and Resurrection.
    Very untyipical for Bach variation form is developed to the utmost degree... and overcomes itself actually - as a result variations are only simple structural elements of more complex meaningful episodes and parts of form.
    One of the most signififcan feature of Bach's music (of any music but bach espeially) is working with time. He is able to express both linear time movement - historical time - the time of hebrew and christian (Old and New testament) - the time that goes form the beginning of time till the of it.. step by step in the present - leaving past behind and looking into future (this is the time that bacame the only tme model in later Betthoven style music)... and another time - time Holy Judgement, Ressurection - when time holds, when it does not move though you still can feel it.
    Variation give more possibilities to work with cyclic time feel (as it happens in renaissance music whne often you lose the beginning variations already in teh middle of the piece) - and huge vast linear development of the form.
    It all coincides in the end of the last D minor episodes - which in my opinion shows at the same time the descending of the soul to Hell and then ascension up and purification of it... in this episodes time colapses, it is no more. And final chords of the theme are not the return of time but it is recreation.
    it all began like a small man withing a time flow and that flow throws and tosses, and ended like a humanthat withholds all the time in him, that forms and molds time, makes it move and breathe.

    Maya's performance is full of integrity and astonishing maturity - whic can be only gift as it is just impossible to conciously comprehend such things. She just has some connection to this breath, meanings... she will only develope it in the future I know.

    And what I also appreciate in her performance that it is absolutely unconventional in the way young modern violinist should play it

  41. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcsanwald View Post
    I found Chris Thile's opinion on bowing vs plectrum interesting, from this interview:
    i think every pluck instrument player should develope the touch thinking of it as of bow... think that you can play all the spectrum of the attacks and controls that bow players have, control the end of the note (which is often mistake even of top players - and pianists too by the way).
    i am big fan of baroque traverso and do play some... when I first occasionally picked i was astonished how much more expressive it is than any plucked instrument...
    It teaches you fantastic harmonic and melodic articulation, clearance and coherence.

    I hate plucked instruments actually... lots of meaningless resonance and thoughless sonoric beautic, and crazy players' communities.

    Only lute and jazz guitar are two worlds that seem convincing enough for me to pick these instruments.

  42. #91

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    Jonah is a hard man to impress

  43. #92

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    I am glad t find Jonah that I can agree with you wholeheartedly that a pick is a tiny bow. So is a finger nail.

    I am not a religious man but I have played Bach every day for the last 26 years. Learning to make clear his dance music has been the guiding force in my reading practice throughout that time. Evey time I pick up and play the entirety of his solo violin music at sight from my Peter s edition it gives me great joy to find that I can find more than I'd did the last time and that those things which I thought I knew I now know more deeply.

    I also feel that MY presumption and overconfidence are not of the banal nature common on the internet. I am no longer so young or so impressed with myself as i was once so foolish to be.

    I wish that girl,yourself and anyone else with the sense to love Bach nothing but success. There is,for me, no more noble nor impossible aspiration in all of music than that which provokes one, throughout a lifetimes devotion ,to hear and,in some fleeting instants to play it, with some modicum of the depth with which it's creator embued it.

    It is most certainly true that you and I hear his music differently. I also have hope,and indeed have some faith, that I will hear it differently tomorrow.

    If I were still a religious man i would pray for you, that you too might that be so lucky. But instead please simply accept my very best wishes.

    D.
    (My apologies for the clumsy syntax but I am at work, have no typewriter, and don't really know how to make clear my thoughts on some mere tablet)

  44. #93

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    I am not a religious man too... but it's culture. You see.. you may feel free to be non-religious man but once you analyze Botticelli's or Rembrandts paintings (even those not directly cnnected with religious subjects) you have to understand that Christianity was a part of their natural way of seeing and understanding the world... and Christianity in different forms of country and cepoch and specific person.
    Same thing concerns Bach.

    I use christian images because I am familiar with it and it is easy for me to operate witt the same images and notions that Bach and his epoch did. But you can use if you want your own - the meaning is what matters.
    actually understanding musical language would be enough, but is there any? You say

    I also feel that MY presumption and overconfidence are not of the banal nature common on the internet. I am no longer so young or so impressed with myself as i was once so foolish to be.
    I don't care actually. Not because I am rude, just because this sentimental argumant has nothing to do with understanding Bach or not.

    You made a statement which I find wrong and superficial, the fact that you feel that 'as quoted above' does not make it right or profound.

    Note that I do not try to offend you and I am not emotional... the fact that I find your satement wrong and superficial does not mean for me that you are wrong and superficial person.
    I just do not see what's behind it.

    You said: "I do feel however that a tenuto between beats two and three for no discernible musical reason in SO many non structural bars is at the very least questionable. "

    What's behind it? What is a structural bar? Whare are they? How many? And in which precisely this tenuto shows up? What is the strucutre here? How is it formed and organized here? How does it work? What makes it (how it is represented in real music)? What do you understnd by tenuto? and how is it possible to use tenuto in respect to musical form? What do you think about the realtion of beats and harmonic and melodic material in the piece and how these relations can be connceted with 'over'tenuto (this is once you mention beats 2 and 3)?

    These are a few basic questions that come to my mind.

  45. #94

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    Those are good questions,you must answer them.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Jonah is a hard man to impress
    ..just a hard man(period).

  47. #96

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    Men are often hard.

  48. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freel View Post
    Those are good questions,you must answer them.
    So you dropped an irresponsible critical comment, showing snobbish attitude to the performer.

    Then you found time to write a long post about non-banality of your opinions and decribing you respect and best wishes to all the human kind.

    But you cannot show this respect in discussing the subject in true manner, in explaining your position to the depth, in open and fair argument.

    I called Vengerov's performance cheap pathetic trash but I don't pretend an 'honorable man', I am vicious treacherous Brutus

    you explain this tenuto issue and hold argument with me to the very end, or stay little troll playing ying these snobbish games many forumites enjoy so much.

  49. #98

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    She drags on beat two, often but not consistently. I think she is trying do something with rubato which would should be achieved with articulation tone and dynamics, I know why and it is something that I have worked hard to excise from my playing.

    It is common fault amongst classical guitarists, so common in fact that many cannot hear it. It is the central trouble that they have playing with others and in particular playing rhythmic styles like flamenco and swing.


    I used the word tenuto in an attempt to be gentle, I dislike words like 'pathetic' to criticise another persons efforts, especially when someone in the discussion has expressed admiration. I expressed admiration for the girl, the word used was fabulous.

    There I have removed the speck from my eye.

    I thought we would have a whale of a time, I am surprised you feel I should repent my wickedness.

    No, let me be honest, I am seldom surprised.

    D.
    Last edited by Freel; 08-06-2018 at 04:28 AM.

  50. #99

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    Well I liked the Vengerov, but I'm stupid and susceptible to cheap tricks.

  51. #100

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    Also I dislike the way the clip posted by Jonah highlights violas and their enablers.