Playing melody in thirds, fourths, etc.

[ragman1]

You people are weird. If I see 7alt what makes you think I'd play a 9 or a straight 13? Weird. None of my dom voicings have the 5 in them anyway.

[AllanAllen]

No idea where you’re getting that.

it is:

C Db D# E Gb Ab Bb

D# and E being enharmonic spellings for the Eb and Fb that show up in Db melodic minor Ab and Gb being dual-use too

From your other post. C E G B Db D# Gb G# is C7 with a b9 #9, b5 and #5.

[AllanAllen]

How Galt is usually taught is that you can pick one out of these four: G7b9#11, G7#9#11, G7b9b13, G7#9b13.
But these are also options: G7, G7b9, G7#9, G7#11, G7b13.
I will argue is that you should default to G7 if you don't know how the others are going to sound in the context and you want to play it safe.

I just think it's lazy to have everything else defined and then Alt can mean 9 different chords and I have to guess which one will work.

[pamosmusic]

From your other post. C E G B Db D# Gb G# is C7 with a b9 #9, b5 and #5.

Definitely doesn’t. Not sure where you’re getting that.

[AllanAllen]

I don’t doubt it. I like blue bell vanilla personally. But I’m such a fan of chocolate that I prefer their Dutch chocolate flavor, even though I readily acknowledge that it is not the same quality as the vanilla.

I would even say the vanilla is objectively better. But I don’t personally care.

I don't like Breyer, which was my point. I've never had chocolate ice cream be better than bad vanilla.

I'm on fire in this thread. Can't get a single point across today. LOL

[orri]

So now you're saying a Calt is C E G B Db D# Gb G#?

What happened to the 13th?

The 7th is a Bb not a B.

There is no (natural) 13 (A). the #5 and the b13 is the same note. (Same with #11 and b5.)

I wrote this previously:

How Galt is usually taught is that you can pick one out of these four: G7b9#11, G7#9#11, G7b9b13, G7#9b13.

Another way to phrase this is that you select either the b9 or the #9 (not both) and combine it with either the b5 or the #5 (not both). So the traditional way to teach alt chords is that you can select one out of 4 options.

There is debate among jazz musicians and educator on whether people prefer b5 and #5 or #11 and b13, and whether they mean the same thing or different things.
I am sure there are multiple threads on this forum which beat that horse to death.

[AllanAllen]

Definitely doesn’t. Not sure where you’re getting that.

lol R35 is one of the things “alt” distinctly doesn’t mean.

For what it’s worth, I dispute the idea that “alt” doesn’t mean anything specific.

it means b9 #9, b5 #5.

C root
E 3rd
G 5th
B b7
Db b9
D##9
Gb b5
G# #5

[pamosmusic]

I just think it's lazy to have everything else defined and then Alt can mean 9 different chords and I have to guess which one will work.

Well … what if I told you most folks are thinking about function and context when they make decisions about which extensions and voicings they’re playing and that, from a certain perspective, asking the chord chart to give you all of it is …… a bit lazy?

[pamosmusic]

C root
E 3rd
G 5th
B b7
Db b9
D##9
Gb b5
G# #5

Not sure where you’re getting G from.

and the b7 would be Bb.

[AllanAllen]

Another way to phrase this is that you select either the b9 or the #9 (not both) and combine it with either the b5 or the #5 (not both). So the traditional way to teach alt chords is that you can select one out of 4 options.

There is debate among jazz musicians and educator on whether people prefer b5 and #5 or #11 and b13, and whether they mean the same thing or different things.
I am sure there are multiple threads on this forum which beat that horse to death.

This is the ambiguity of the chord that I don't like. It means 4 things and they don't all work when you see an alt.

I've lost the narrative in my other posts trying to show how it's ambiguous.

This has to be one of those things where a teacher in the same room would help.

[ragman1]

The melody is usually the key because chord symbols generally reflect it.

In Goodbye the first two bars are Eb Eb C D C which is Ab7. The next two are Eb Eb F Eb D which is G7, altered to G7+. The pick-up to the Dm is C C C over A7, altered to - wait for it - A7#9.

It's often that simple. And I'm quite sure we all know that.

[AllanAllen]

Well … what if I told you most folks are thinking about function and context when they make decisions about which extensions and voicings they’re playing and that, from a certain perspective, asking the chord chart to give you all of it is …… a bit lazy?

I would say I've made a big mess instead of a clear argument. Let me try again.

The arranger/composer should only give extensions they think they are essential to the tune.

The Alt symbol, meaning 4 different groups of extensions, does not serve this purpose, so I do not like it.

[ragman1]

The Alt symbol, meaning 4 different groups of extensions, does not serve this purpose, so I do not like it.

Oh, just play a b13 and keep smiling. Life's too short :-)

[pamosmusic]

This is the ambiguity of the chord that I don't like. It means 4 things and they don't all work when you see an alt.

I've lost the narrative in my other posts trying to show how it's ambiguous.

This has to be one of those things where a teacher in the same room would help.

Well chords are ambiguous.

b9s are all over dominant chords.

b3 is a perfectly normal choice over major quality chords.

b5 and #5 can coexist as b5 and b13 or #5 #11.

So everything works fine and are normal choices over dominant chords

[orri]

This is the ambiguity of the chord that I don't like. It means 4 things and they don't all work when you see an alt.

I've lost the narrative in my other posts trying to show how it's ambiguous.

This has to be one of those things where a teacher in the same room would help.

If someone writes an alt chord, all 4 possible options should work (but not if you're playing with another harmony instrument, which goes for another option).

If you're alone and have time, try several, listen and select the one you like the best.
If you're not alone and don't want to waste other people's time, just play a 7 chord (without any 5th or 9)

[AllanAllen]

I am satisfied.

[emanresu]

Imho 7alt is the least ambiguous of them all. It clearly states that it is a dominant, the alt scale is required to construct it.

When it's written as plain 7, then it gets messy. Or 7#5 or something. Because the scale is not defined then. And what you play may conflict with other people's opinions on the spot.

[pamosmusic]

Imho 7alt is the least ambiguous of them all. It clearly states that it is a dominant, the alt scale is required to construct it.

When it's written as plain 7, then it gets messy. Or 7#5 or something. Because the scale is not defined then. And what you play may conflict with other people's opinions on the spot.

Not a bad point.

[Christian Miller]

Good vanilla is better than most other ice creams in another flavor. Good chocolate is better than most vanilla. And so forth.

It’s not necessarily what you do, but how you do it that matters.

Good ice cream is gooder than bad ice cream it is true


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[Christian Miller]

(* I'm now trying to fit with the popular kids on this forum, by using their preferred terminology)

Never been called that before!

My idea of a basic B ‘G7alt’ is what happens when you plonk a Abm triad on a G7. So G7b9b13 basically.

The 7b5 sounds are a bit more pungent…


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[Christian Miller]

Because no chord in its right mind has a b11.

I’m sure some nutter has written that in a big band part somewhere.

The Kenton chart for Everytime We Say Goodbye we play at my local BB blow ends on a ‘maj11’ which is of course, in fact a maj7#11 haha


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[Kirk Garrett]

I don't like Breyer, which was my point. I've never had chocolate ice cream be better than bad vanilla.

I'm on fire in this thread. Can't get a single point across today. LOL

You’re a sort of an ice cream racist I take it.

I’ll just find my own way outta here. No worries.

[AllanAllen]

You’re a sort of an ice cream racist I take it.

I’ll just find my own way outta here. No worries.

Make Dessert Great Again

[emanresu]

Jazz is not dessert. Jazz is heavy half-cooked beef.

[pamosmusic]

Jazz is not dessert. Jazz is heavy half-cooked beef.

Jazz is dessert but it’s ice cream from that gourmet ice cream place with flavors like “olive oil” or “wild blackberry” or “buttermilk”