Solo Guitar Tune #5 - Moon River

[lawson-stone]

Yes I think folk song is a good analogy. The timing would be tough for improvising. I've always liked this song a lot and thought it would be a good solo guitar vehicle because it has in my opinion the number one thing for solo guitar and that's a beautiful melody. But if the song is too pretty and "folky" like this one, it's tough to reharmonize too much as the regular reharmonizing "vehicles" can take away the essence of the pretty melody. It's sort of like trying to put a jazz flavor to "The Water is Wide". it doesn't always work.

I'm not sure I agree with this general idea. I've heard some pretty jazzy improvisations on this tune, keeping it in 3/4. I've been working on improvising with it and I'd say the difficulty is not the folkish quality, which I question, nor the 3/4, but rather the changes themselves. These are rather different changes from the standard sequences we are used to. I'm finding to get at the improvisation on this one I have to "strip" the changes down to some basic points to see how they are actually working. For example, going from C to Am7 then to F7 ... there are some twists and turns harmonically that need to be finessed to find a structure for improvising that keeps the tune's underlying feel in place. I have figured out a couple of those things, but not the whole thing.

On 3/4 time, I have also found there are some tunes that really help to get 3/4 as a more jazz/swing feel. Miles Davis' "All Blues" is one of them.

[PaulW10]

I'm not sure I agree with this general idea. I've heard some pretty jazzy improvisations on this tune, keeping it in 3/4. I've been working on improvising with it and I'd say the difficulty is not the folkish quality, which I question, nor the 3/4, but rather the changes themselves. These are rather different changes from the standard sequences we are used to. I'm finding to get at the improvisation on this one I have to "strip" the changes down to some basic points to see how they are actually working. For example, going from C to Am7 then to F7 ... there are some twists and turns harmonically that need to be finessed to find a structure for improvising that keeps the tune's underlying feel in place. I have figured out a couple of those things, but not the whole thing.

On 3/4 time, I have also found there are some tunes that really help to get 3/4 as a more jazz/swing feel. Miles Davis' "All Blues" is one of them.

I think this makes a lot of sense. But perhaps the nonstandard changes are what give it that "folky" feel? It's an unusual and hard to categorize tune which is probably why it's always been so popular.

[lawson-stone]

I think this makes a lot of sense. But perhaps the nonstandard changes are what give it that "folky" feel? It's an unusual and hard to categorize tune which is probably why it's always been so popular.

having been a folk player for the first 35 years of my guitar-playing life, I would never have called "Moon River" a folk song. The changes are way too complex for a folk style. Try to imagine Joan Baez or Pete Seeger, or even the Byrds (early) doing this and you'll see it instantly.

I think all this talk about "folk" is misleading and unhelpful. What the song is, is POP. That the movie has a lady sing it with a guitar was staging. The under-structure is the kind of more-sophisticated pop we had in the 60's and 70's. Think Andy Williams, the Rat-Pack, middle-term Sinatra. "Strangers in the Night," "New York, New York," "Unforgettable" "Something Stupid like I Love You," etc. A bit late to be the kind of pop music that supplied all the jazz standards, but still not folk, rock, or novelty. It was grown up music for a generation about my parents' age, the WW2 generation.

A lot of those songs have unusual changes and are hard to improvise on because they don't fall back into the standard harmonic sequences we jazz players get used to. Jimmy Webb's tunes are similar. It's hard to improvise on "Wichita Lineman" (though I've heard it), "Galveston," or "McArthur Park." It's high pop, and a different bag.

[PaulW10]

having been a folk player for the first 35 years of my guitar-playing life, I would never have called "Moon River" a folk song. The changes are way too complex for a folk style. Try to imagine Joan Baez or Pete Seeger, or even the Byrds (early) doing this and you'll see it instantly.

I think all this talk about "folk" is misleading and unhelpful. What the song is, is POP. That the movie has a lady sing it with a guitar was staging. The under-structure is the kind of more-sophisticated pop we had in the 60's and 70's. Think Andy Williams, the Rat-Pack, middle-term Sinatra. "Strangers in the Night," "New York, New York," "Unforgettable" "Something Stupid like I Love You," etc. A bit late to be the kind of pop music that supplied all the jazz standards, but still not folk, rock, or novelty. It was grown up music for a generation about my parents' age, the WW2 generation.

A lot of those songs have unusual changes and are hard to improvise on because they don't fall back into the standard harmonic sequences we jazz players get used to. Jimmy Webb's tunes are similar. It's hard to improvise on "Wichita Lineman" (though I've heard it), "Galveston," or "McArthur Park." It's high pop, and a different bag.

Totally makes sense. Yes I agree "pop" is a better description of the tune than "folk". This song was written like the older standards when there was a different general method used for composing. Folk, rock etc. was typically written strumming a guitar and getting a rhythm riff going, what have you. Then the melody and lyrics were place on top. Melodies weren't the emphasis.

I see Moon River and songs from that era and before being written by a composer at a piano first finding a melody and then adding lyrics (or vice versa), and then finding harmonies, and then later adding the rhythm.

The emphasis on melody in the song is why earlier songs seem to work better for solo guitar than what came later. Always exceptions of course!

[matt.guitarteacher]

Playing in 3/4 is harder generally because we don't DO it as much. If you have to count it , you're not going to be able to solo over it etc. It's not just arbitrary number of beats either. There are patterns and feels which aren't obvious without shedding a good bit in 3.

I'm worse in 3 than 4 . Don't think there's any way around that, but I'm much worse in 5. :-)

Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk

[John A.]

having been a folk player for the first 35 years of my guitar-playing life, I would never have called "Moon River" a folk song. The changes are way too complex for a folk style. Try to imagine Joan Baez or Pete Seeger, or even the Byrds (early) doing this and you'll see it instantly.

I think all this talk about "folk" is misleading and unhelpful. What the song is, is POP. That the movie has a lady sing it with a guitar was staging. The under-structure is the kind of more-sophisticated pop we had in the 60's and 70's. Think Andy Williams, the Rat-Pack, middle-term Sinatra. "Strangers in the Night," "New York, New York," "Unforgettable" "Something Stupid like I Love You," etc. A bit late to be the kind of pop music that supplied all the jazz standards, but still not folk, rock, or novelty. It was grown up music for a generation about my parents' age, the WW2 generation.

A lot of those songs have unusual changes and are hard to improvise on because they don't fall back into the standard harmonic sequences we jazz players get used to. Jimmy Webb's tunes are similar. It's hard to improvise on "Wichita Lineman" (though I've heard it), "Galveston," or "McArthur Park." It's high pop, and a different bag.

Having been born in Greenwich Village in the 60s and sung along with Baez and Seeger since I was in (red) diapers, I am untroubled by the folk song comparison. However, I didn't call it a folk song. I said Mancini and Mercer intended it to feel like a folk song. More precisely, they intended it to evoke Holly's simple, rural past and to make people feel like it was an old song she sang back home (I saw a documentary about BaT in which Mancini says this). But if you prefer "old song" to "folk song", fine. In any event, it doesn't seem "complex" to me. The form and harmony are straightforward. The melody is simple, easy to sing, and, well, folky; way easier to sing than those Webb songs. My own difficulty in trying to play something with shorter note values and more of a groove has nothing to do with any difficulty in the form or harmony of the song. For me, the overall feel of the song pushed me toward simple motifs and "inside" playing and away from more busy playing when done solo. No intent to mislead or be unhelpful. I have much more effective and undetectable ways of doing that.

John

[teeps]

Very impromptu. Just for fun...

A very sweet duet :-)

[lawson-stone]

Having been born in Greenwich Village in the 60s and sung along with Baez and Seeger since I was in (red) diapers, I am untroubled by the folk song comparison. However, I didn't call it a folk song. I said Mancini and Mercer intended it to feel like a folk song. More precisely, they intended it to evoke Holly's simple, rural past and to make people feel like it was an old song she sang back home (I saw a documentary about BaT in which Mancini says this). But if you prefer "old song" to "folk song", fine. In any event, it doesn't seem "complex" to me. The form and harmony are straightforward. The melody is simple, easy to sing, and, well, folky; way easier to sing than those Webb songs. My own difficulty in trying to play something with shorter note values and more of a groove has nothing to do with any difficulty in the form or harmony of the song. For me, the overall feel of the song pushed me toward simple motifs and "inside" playing and away from more busy playing when done solo. No intent to mislead or be unhelpful. I have much more effective and undetectable ways of doing that.

John

I'm sorry if my comments bothered you. I didn't intend that.

[John A.]

I'm sorry if my comments bothered you. I didn't intend that.

They didn't bother me. It's all just idle banter as far as I'm concerned.

John

[KirkP]

Very impromptu. Just for fun...

Fun! I live for times like that (playing tunes with family and friends.) And the playing is very nice.

[KirkP]

Looking through my library and youtube, it seems few people take a chasing-the-changes approach to improvising over this tune. I think that’s because it’s such a melody-driven tune. Improvisation works best as playing around with the melody and harmony, but generally not creating an altogether new melody over the changes. Brad Mehldau seems to take the improvisation further than anybody, followed by Bill Frisell.

[neshkadrums]

Hi guys .Playin some takes but I didn't like it
Hellish rubato and other shit.Whatever.
Always remember Frisell with Holland and Elvin.
What a piece.The Album itself.Shut up.

[cesarguit]