Guitar Friendly Keys or Standard?

[lawson-stone]

Maybe others don't struggle with this, but I always feel a bit let down when I hear some nice solo guitar performance of a jazz standard, only to find out later that instead of playing it the key that most jazz players and ensembles play it in, it has been transposed into a "guitar friendly" key. So "Body and Soul" goes from Db to D. I understand the reasons for this, and I know great players do it.

Still, I find myself not wanting to have two musical identities, one as a solo guitar player who puts the tunes in the keys that are easier for guitar, and another as a player who plays in the usual keys.

I know we are supposed to play in all 12 keys, so maybe this is moot; still I can't help feeling disappointed when I find out some solo guitar performance I have admired is transposed into a supposedly guitar-friendly key.

Do I just need to get over this, or is there something here?

[christianm77]

Maybe others don't struggle with this, but I always feel a bit let down when I hear some nice solo guitar performance of a jazz standard, only to find out later that instead of playing it the key that most jazz players and ensembles play it in, it has been transposed into a "guitar friendly" key. So "Body and Soul" goes from Db to D. I understand the reasons for this, and I know great players do it.

Still, I find myself not wanting to have two musical identities, one as a solo guitar player who puts the tunes in the keys that are easier for guitar, and another as a player who plays in the usual keys.

I know we are supposed to play in all 12 keys, so maybe this is moot; still I can't help feeling disappointed when I find out some solo guitar performance I have admired is transposed into a supposedly guitar-friendly key.

Do I just need to get over this, or is there something here?

I think you have Stockholm syndrome.

The only reason why flat keys are considered 'jazz keys' are because of the horn players who book us. Some standards were written in flat keys for sure, but it's interesting how quite a few tunes magically end up in Bb.

Try hanging out with a fiddler instead... It can be a bit confusing sometimes.... Sweet Georgia Brown in G or Ab... help! Where am I?

Also watch the blood drain from the face of the sax player when you insist that Bossa's be performed in the correct, largely sharp keys. Unless they are a good sax player of course, in which case they will give you a jaunty grin. And never book you again....

I think the all 12 keys thing is cool if you are working on your lines etc, but some keys work better than others for songs.

[P4guitar]

"Guitar friendly" really means leveraging open strings right? If that's what they're doing, don't feel disappointed, feel sorry for them because they're self limiting. I look to the late, great Ted Greene who seamlessly and beautifully morphed keys at will - yes he used open strings when available, but didn't need them.

[christianm77]

Incidentally, I like the way Peter Bernstein plays in flat keys and uses open strings ANYWAY. Gnarly.

[christianm77]

The guitar sounds best in G, IMO, open strings or no. That's how the instrument is designed...

[lawson-stone]

Incidentally, I like the way Peter Bernstein plays in flat keys and uses open strings ANYWAY. Gnarly.

Sure, in flat keys often the open strings are great for passing tones and chromatic tones, rather than diachronic or roots.

[lawson-stone]

The guitar sounds best in G, IMO, open strings or no. That's how the instrument is designed...

I don't know about key, but I think the guitar shines between the 2nd and 8th frets. That just seems to be the sweet spot.

[MarkRhodes]

I don't know about key, but I think the guitar shines between the 2nd and 8th frets. That just seems to be the sweet spot.

I think so too, though as Ron Eschete showed us, you can play in all 12 keys in that area! The guitar sounds good there and the arm is nicely placed.

G is a great key for guitar. Here is Herb Ellis doing "It Could Happen To You" in G. I've been working on this piece and it's a slow go. No open strings (or if so, not many.) Some close-voiced chords that require stretches I'm not used to. Students of Mickey Baker's Volume 1 should appreciate the intro. Lovely stuff.

[mr. beaumont]

Incidentally, I like the way Peter Bernstein plays in flat keys and uses open strings ANYWAY. Gnarly.

Yeah, I was gonna say, in "flat" keys the open strings become cool shit!

I've definitely transposed to make things fit better though, when playing solo. I do "someday my prince" in G, for example.

[christianm77]

Man Herb's time is sooo killing.

[MarkRhodes]

"Guitar friendly" really means leveraging open strings right?

I don't think so. If that were the case, jazz guitarists would be more apt to play blues in E and A than in G but they are not. I think it is because if you use the sixth string root at the third fret, you've got everything else lining up neatly to the right of it. (The same holds true for F, but playing at the first fret is less comfortable than playing at the third.) And the meat of it lies in what Lawwon Stone calls the sweet spot of the guitar--frets 2 through 8.

Here's Kenny Burrell doing a blues in G----I don't think there are many open strings in it.

[MarkRhodes]

Man Herb's time is sooo killing.

Herb used to say that jazz was a feeling and his playing exemplified that.

[christianm77]

I don't think so. If that were the case, jazz guitarists would be more apt to play blues in E and A than in G but they are not. I think it is because if you use the sixth string root at the third fret, you've got everything else lining up neatly to the right of it. (The same holds true for F, but playing at the first fret is less comfortable than playing at the third.) And the meat of it lies in what Lawwon Stone calls the sweet spot of the guitar--frets 2 through 8.

Here's Kenny Burrell doing a blues in G----I don't think there are many open strings in it.

I have to be careful when doing trio stuff - Out of Nowhere, Darn that Dream, East of the Sun, Just Friends - a whole lot of G in my preferred trio repertoire. Someone (a drummer IIRC) pointed it out and I was like, oh crap.

[henryrobinett]

Maybe others don't struggle with this, but I always feel a bit let down when I hear some nice solo guitar performance of a jazz standard, only to find out later that instead of playing it the key that most jazz players and ensembles play it in, it has been transposed into a "guitar friendly" key. So "Body and Soul" goes from Db to D. I understand the reasons for this, and I know great players do it.

I'm with you 100%. Play it in the accepted key. Don't dumb it down or make it guitar friendly. Play it right. That's what I think.

[henryrobinett]

But if your style depends on open chords, like say Tommy E.

[targuit]

I really don't necessarily have a key preference in general, but I do find that some keys work better for some songs. I also like flat keys like Eb and Bb, because then certain open strings become the leading sharp seventh to the I and V chords. And as a singer, the flat keys work nicely with a certain character that is hard to describe and quantify but still feels right. I also like the key of F for that seventh leading bass E note. I think the key I tend to play in least often would be Ab.

For some reason when I play a song the first time I also like to start with the key of C often. Don't know why.

[targuit]

I'm with you 100%. Play it in the accepted key. Don't dumb it down or make it guitar friendly. Play it right. That's what I think.

I partially agree with you, Henry, but let's not forget that artists with jazz street cred like Joe Pass played 'Round Midnight in Dm. And it plays well in that key. I don't get too worked up about it, but I understand where you are coming from. I think the demands of solo guitar in terms ringing open strings or voice leading help determine the decision for any one guitarist.

[henryrobinett]

I play with horn players and piano players, and bass players MOSTLY. I don't force them to conform to me when playing standards. So when doing chord melody I like to conform to standards so not to confuse myself. I don't learn tunes in all 12 keys. A couple or one is good enough for me.

[mr. beaumont]

I don't mind getting up higher on the neck with a band...but if I'm truly alone, solo, some things just don't sound as good.

Bottom line is, if you're playing with others, you gotta let your cute little arrangements go and play in accepted keys.

[lawson-stone]

Yeah, I was gonna say, in "flat" keys the open strings become cool shit!

I've definitely transposed to make things fit better though, when playing solo. I do "someday my prince" in G, for example.

Being a student of ancient law, including talmudic law, I hunted until I found a published lead-sheet for this tune in F, and now i play it in F, (a) because it lays nicely on the guitar and (b) I can say "Yes, F is one of the standard published keys for this tune..."

In G do you find that high note in (I think) measure 26 can sound a little shrill? For me (in F) it's a G at the 15th fret over an F7, I guess for you that would be the A at the 17th over a G7?

I still practice it in Bb as well.

[grahambop]

I usually stick to the accepted key. I think the challenge of making it work in that key on the guitar always teaches me something.

If I went for 'guitar friendly' keys I'd probably play everything in E!

[henryrobinett]

I usually stick to the accepted key. I think the challenge of making it work in that key on the guitar always teaches me something.

If I went for 'guitar friendly' keys I'd probably play everything in E!

Exactly.

[mr. beaumont]

Being a student of ancient law, including talmudic law, I hunted until I found a published lead-sheet for this tune in F, and now i play it in F, (a) because it lays nicely on the guitar and (b) I can say "Yes, F is one of the standard published keys for this tune..."

In G do you find that high note in (I think) measure 26 can sound a little shrill? For me (in F) it's a G at the 15th fret over an F7, I guess for you that would be the A at the 17th over a G7?

I still practice it in Bb as well.

I actually take that line down an octave...

Can't remember where, but I heard someone do that...a horn I think...anyway, I liked it...takes a little "disney" out of it...

[Tom Karol]

Sure, most horn players want to play in flat keys, because their instruments are tuned to Bb or Eb, but I know a tenor player who's very good at the sharp keys because he's played a lot in horn sections in rock bands.

I once heard a self-proclaimed music expert (who didn't actually play an instrument) say something like this: "... and he plays it in Bb, which is an extremely difficult key on the guitar."

[henryrobinett]

Sure, most horn players want to play in flat keys, because their instruments are tuned to Bb or Eb, but I know a tenor player who's very good at the sharp keys because he's played a lot in horn sections in rock bands.

I once heard a self-proclaimed music expert (who didn't actually play an instrument) say something like this: "... and he plays it in Bb, which is an extremely difficult key on the guitar."

Well there are standard keys. Autumn Leaves I think was originally in G/Emin (Real Book key) but it's most common to play if it Bb/Gm. Or Just Friends G but standardly played in Eb or Bb. If you play with jazz musicians I like to play in the keys most jazz musicians play in. It helps with the common language.

And its not that horn players can't play in guitar keys. I've used many in my bands and most are comfortable in some of the guitar keys I've written in. Never complain and sound great. It's just COMMON to play them in these keys and UNCOMMON in other keys. Unless you want to have train wrecks on stage, it's best to play songs in keys with common language.