Body & Soul, keeping the flow or?

**Uffe Steen** · 03-10-2025, 04:47 AM

Hi forum friends
I guess my main style is about letting the the swing flow vs rubato
reaching out for interesting harmonies.
The grass is always greener on the other side, so I love listening and learn from the harmony masters (Peter Mazza , Rosenwinkel etc that do both fascinating harmonies and playing in time at the same time)

What are are your current approach?

**djg** · 03-10-2025, 05:40 AM

i dont play solo guitar. but pls do keep the time. i love it. there are precious few players that can/could do it that well. when i listen to solo guitar it is bireli, ted greene or you.

**geoff23** · 03-10-2025, 06:32 AM

Very nice indeed! I much prefer to hear the flow or pulse. To me, rubato is tempting for the player but can be frustrating for the listener.

**Christian Miller** · 03-10-2025, 07:56 AM

I try to play in time... good classical players will tell you that rubato is not about abandoning the time, but stretching it like elastic. You can't do that well unless you can play in strict tempo. It's a real art form in itself.

Sounds great!

**pamosmusic** · 03-10-2025, 09:10 AM

Not to mention how powerful rubato is as an effect when the time is so strong.

This sounds beautiful in time

**pamosmusic** · 03-10-2025, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by djg

i dont play solo guitar. but pls do keep the time. i love it. there are precious few players that can/could do it that well. when i listen to solo guitar it is bireli, ted greene or you.

ever check out Tal Yahalom?

He does it really well too. Don’t think he’s ever recorded a solo project but there’s some stuff out there and he plays that way live.

**lawson-stone** · 03-10-2025, 11:45 AM

Rubato in the hands of a master, like Joe Pass, can be powerful, though even he always seems to maintain a drive or pulse in rubato sections. I feel in the hands of middling players or beginners, rubato is a way to cover up for bad time or clumsy technique.

**mr. beaumont** · 03-10-2025, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Rubato in the hands of a master, like Joe Pass, can be powerful, though even he always seems to maintain a drive or pulse in rubato sections. I feel in the hands of middling players or beginners, rubato is a way to cover up for bad time or clumsy technique.

Joe could get away with playing rubato all he wanted because when he played in time, it was SWINGING.

His rubato always had forward motion too, it wasn't meandering. I think that's the key to rubato...it's got to have intent.

**lawson-stone** · 03-10-2025, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Joe could get away with playing rubato all he wanted because when he played in time, it was SWINGING.

His rubato always had forward motion too, it wasn't meandering. I think that's the key to rubato...it's got to have intent.

I was thinking about this recently. Did Joe play real "rubato" or did he just insert blocks in the tune where he played unbelievable and amazing fills? I have thought it would be fun to record his playing the head on some standard and just skip the fills. I think he often played his melody sections in time, but then broke away to embellish with fills. Could be wrong, but I never felt he was doing what we usually think of as rubato. Muddled, I know, but Joe is definitely doing something that others didn't and many still don't do. It's why Virtuoso redefined solo guitar.

**Tal_175** · 03-10-2025, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Christian Miller

I try to play in time... good classical players will tell you that rubato is not about abandoning the time, but stretching it like elastic. You can't do that well unless you can play in strict tempo. It's a real art form in itself.

Sounds great!

I've heard that too. But what exactly stretching time means? Changing the tempo while keeping the meter and form intact?

**pamosmusic** · 03-10-2025, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

I've heard that too. But what exactly stretching time means? Changing the tempo while keeping the meter and form intact?

The way my classical teacher explained this was that -- if you set the metronome to click on the first beat of each phrase, then your first beat should still be in time. So if you slow down, you should speed up later to balance it, and vice versa.

Obviously, there isn't that sort of mathematical equality, but if you listen to someone like Segovia who got knocked by later generations for being too loose with the time, you can hear that there's still some real balance there.

**Tal_175** · 03-10-2025, 12:18 PM

I strive to play solo guitar in time. Partly because I am not sure if I get the rubato playing. To me, it sounds like another tension/resolution pattern where tension is the disappearance of the predictable structure, resolution is going back to it. This works if rubato parts are alternated with in-time parts. I heard Uffe's transition form his rubato intro to the beginning of the tune in the original post also that way. But I suspect not everybody hears it this way and there is more to rubato.

**pamosmusic** · 03-10-2025, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

I strive to play solo guitar in time. Partly because I am not sure if I get the rubato playing. To me, it sounds like another tension/resolution pattern where tension is the disappearance of the predictable structure, resolution is going back to it. This works if rubato parts are alternated with in-time parts. I heard Uffe's transition form his rubato intro to the beginning of the tune in the original post also that way. But I suspect not everybody hears it this way and there is more to rubato.

I don’t know — that seems like a pretty decent notion of what rubato does well.

Tension resolution.

Maybe some more mystery in how … slowing down can really ramp up tension, in which case speeding up resolves it. But also speeding up can ramp up tension, in which case slowing down resolves it.

**Tal_175** · 03-10-2025, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by pamosmusic

The way my classical teacher explained this was that -- if you set the metronome to click on the first beat of each phrase, then your first beat should still be in time. So if you slow down, you should speed up later to balance it, and vice versa.

Obviously, there isn't that sort of mathematical equality, but if you listen to someone like Segovia who got knocked by later generations for being too loose with the time, you can hear that there's still some real balance there.

So there is an implicit tempo and form the time shifts are played against? Also then rubato is not a licence to add and drop beats and measures in this view?

**Uffe Steen** · 03-10-2025, 12:27 PM

Thanks a lot for all the fine answers !
I sometimes feel that rubato can be more like a classical "explanation" style.
I listen a lot to Bill Evans . Sometimes it is pure rubato , but more often he can make his
playing in time sound like rubato and suddenly it reveals a kind of
"groovy swinging" feel (in absence of a better word)