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Hi
so things have been quiet for a few months, lots of practicing but little else. Last year we had a few gigs with agencies and that was with our trio, guitar, sax and double bass.
As it was quiet I decided to pay some money and do a new promo video
Since doing this we have only had a couple of gigs paying between £60 and £150 each but two days ago I was offered a residency one a month at a beautiful pub here in Norfolk, right in the city centre.
I had to think about this as I want it to be a success both for the pub and me and I started to have a re think about things. No pub outside of London is going to be able to offer more than £30-£40 a musician for a trio or duo and I need the gig and opportunity to play every month. It sucks when you have no gigs.
So I said I would take control of there monthly music event for £70
that I will give to the bassist. I will play for free and ill pay out of my own pocket up to £100-£150 for a guest musician each time. the guests will be a range of musicians from African kora players, African singers with mbiras and jazz musicians and these musicians will have a high profile and are well known throughout the UK and are based in our city.
I going to run it for as long as I can and do the flyers and advertising and ive created a Facebook page. It hurts to do this but there are a few very good musicians here in Norfolk and no one is gigging. The only people earning money are singers with backing tracks that sing hits through the decades and their calendar is jammed for the whole year and they probably get £150 a gig
I know that im undercutting but I need to make the most of this chance I feel its my last chance to make something happen in the city. Weddings through agencies are good and well paid but the gigs don't do nothing for your reputation or profile.
Any advice on how to make this a successful event for the venue ( which is most important) and for me would be great.
There are many female singers in this area. For most, there idea of Jazz is Amy Whinehouse and sittin on the dock of the bay. I have two other singers but they like singing stuff like autumn leaves, summertime, aint misbehaving and dream a little dream. I don't think thats going to cut it. The residency is a chance and I feel I have to knock the ball out of the park even if it costs me money
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04-30-2024 11:00 AM
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Wow, you're paying £100-£150 per gig? Madness.
Play solo or in a duo.
Edit. Lovely tune. I play it too in my duo
Edit 2: reading your post again I sort of see what you are saying but ten gigs in and you are out of pocket a grand. That's a terrible business.
Ditch the agencies, make your own promo package and start sending out requests to play. Just keep working and the music scene in your city will take care of itself.
I don't know, I feel like I'm missing your main point
Last edited by Liarspoker; 04-30-2024 at 04:53 PM.
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Sorry again. But I just can't get the above post out of my head. It is just such a flawed business idea.
If you want to revitalize the music scene in your town why not start a music festival.
Ring every place that you can think of where people can play, tell them your idea and see if people can play there and how much they pay.
Also ring hotels, tell them your idea, tell them you'll advertise their hotel in return for some support from them financially. Out of town people will need somewhere to stay.
Also approach the council etc.
With some funding up front you can make a promo video for the event and do advertising for the event.
Then you can get the big guys to come to your town and play plenty of gigs yourself.
On a much smaller scale why not start a weekly jam session somewhere? You'll be playing for free but at least it won't cost you £100-£150 per gig.
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Liarspoker has a point...
Why? Because no one wants to pay them a reasonable fee, or because (they think) there are no interesting opportunities?
Originally Posted by Heybopper
I can imagine one could prefer not to play all rather than to play gigs in shitty conditions and that pay peanuts. But they're not making any money now doing nothing, so maybe they'd be open to not making money doing something nice with other musicians, if someone pulls the cart to organise it. As LS said, try to get some funding left and right in return for exposure, hopefully enough to cover the major expenses you might have to make (rent of a venue for instance). Make a ruckus about your event so locals cannot not be aware it will take place. Maybe even consider making admission free - and crack the old joke at the end (of the 1st part if you have a break) that the beloved audience got in for free but won't get out that easily
All things we did back in my student orchestra days and later to do serious projects with "enlightened amateurs", conservatory students and the occasional established professional.
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I think you should consider applying to the Arts Council. You can say that you are increasing access to cultural diversity in Norfolk or some such.
Making the application is a massive pain, but it might be worth it. You won’t need a massive grant to keep the lights on.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Hi
I really appreciate the comments and for your time in responding and I have taken it all on board. I have done the above things as suggested. I have been working the scene for 7 years. Its Just Norfolk is 10 years behind everywhere else in the UK, Its a beautiful city and I was out last Saturday night with my partners children it cost us £80 for a meal at Nando's and £55 for five drinks. The place is full of clubs, bars and cafes a and restaurants and its packed full of people.
The music scene is crap. Its all tribute bands, pub rock covers and folk. Its a predominantly white area but that has started to change over the last 5 years. There is one jazz jam that runs in the city once a month He has been trying to build it for years. He charges each musician £5 entry which is something he started to do two years ago to accommodate the overheads of moving to a new venue. Festivals forget it, the paperwork planning and costs of bands would be a nightmare. There are many trying to do it as we have lots of fields but people won't come unless you have well known bands. There are lots of local festivals in the countryside but they do it just for fun.
Ive considered moving and maybe still will but I feel this is my last chance to make a success in the city.
I have been given some grants, there are two organisations that can help musicians but its a lot of time and takes me away from the guitar but I am very grateful.
I am single no family, for the last 35 years I have been collecting vintage starwars toys but now have everything. I don't really have anything else to spend my money on so maybe its time to spend and invest in my music career and go all out. Do the flyers get it in the paper every month announcing each guest and really give it my best shot.
I don't think a duo would bring in a crowd and thats what's needed. The pub is Wonderfull its part of an old castle and I think it needs to be buzzing with people every month.
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Building a night like this is basically about building a community.
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Hi
I dont know if anyone is interested, but I thought I would update the thread as I have now had two residencies in Norwich UK twice a month now for 6 months.
What a learning curve. To summarise, I got two gigs in the city each month at two pubs. Both pub bays £70 and its up to me what I do with those nights. Norwich,Norfolk UK is a rural part of England but there are about 17 Jazz musicians in the area and some are the very best ive ever played with, but only about three have a gig once a month, the rest are teaching and not playing at all. No one knows who they are.
So Ive been paying that £70 to the drummer, another £70 out of my pocket to the bassist and I get no payment, but we do get a couple of free Lagers
Last night we had Simon Brown who has been running Norwich Jazz club on Piano as well so that gig cost me £140.
Is it worth it you might ask? without a doubt. I get to play with two great musicians, a double bassist and drummer in the city twice a month.
Norwich now has a regular Jazz scene. Our gigs and the one Simon puts on once a month mean that there is live jazz in the city nearly once a week. The two pubs I play it are right in the city centre. I am 45 and im seeing young people in the bars really liking what we do. Some of these young people are listening to bands that I knew in the 80s and 90,s Sonic youth, the chameleons, the pixies and its great to see.
The Louis Marchesi in Norwich is a pub and last night there was a reggae band downstairs and us on the ground floor and above us was a rockabilly band and they all came down to watch us after they had finished. So many people come up to us and chat and they all have good things to say and its a great atmosphere.
Its just great to be around other musicians and other bands of all kinds of genres (im always learning about new genres now) and just talking to and encouraging each other. Shaking hands and saying have a good set
Ive had to give a lot of thought to the set. Im playing all the heads but I have to make the set interesting for people who dont know much about the music.
I have had to think about presentation. I now play standing up. I now HAVE to talk to the audience. I have to thank them for coming, I have to introduce the band and at least some of the songs. I have to chat to the bar staff and say how grateful we are and I have to chat with all the weird and wonderful people that make up the cities night life.
I have to think about how we can connect.
Norwich is full of tribute acts these days, Americana, folk and pub rock and I deeply believe that the paying customer should be aware that there is other stuff going on. That there is a core of hard working musicians that have put in many hours.
Its done a huge amount for my confidence. When I graduated from Jazz school in 2009, I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression and ive been trying out various meds ever since. I cant sleep without meds. Since then I have battled with the feeling of not being good enough.
For many years I wasn't. Everything I can do on the guitar has taken me many years. Nothing came easy and every concept has taken me months to years to learn. Its just the way it is for me. Some people seem to just grasp things very quick. I saw other guitarist excel very quickly in the 3 year university degree like from playing blue Bossa in first year to giant steps in second year to stablemates in third year.
Its been 10 years since I graduated. 10 years of medication and 10 years of practice.
I learnt to do a website, pay for film promo, do instagram, do Facebook, promote each gig in the local news, various pages online then take photos at gigs or have an audience member to do videos.
The nights are getting busy. How many times in the past has a pub put on a jazz band and no one is there. No one has advertised it, No one knows the tunes the band are playing and the pub says no thanks to any more jazz.
Some musicians are terrible. They dont advertise, they dont comment on the posts, they never bring anyone down to watch and they dont put the gigs on their websites and they want £70 a gig.
Anyway thanks so much for reading all this I do appreciate it.
Last but not least the tunes. The tunes are hugely important. It has to groove, the set has to have familiar elements and unfamiliar elements.
I have had to learn over 70 heads, be bop, latin, swing, straight ahead, blues. I cant read so all the heads are memorised. The audience might not know invitation, but they know the sound of a minor chord so give them a minor vamp for a while, noodle, give them some sounds and then play the tune. We are also doing originals and pop, but choosing the pop very carefully, so far we have Prince the beautiful ones, Bob Dylan girl from the north country
Anyway I think you just have to do it. If you want it to happen then make it happen. its not fair, it sucks being poor, we should get a fair rate of pay, there should be more awareness of Jazz, there should be more support for musicians in the UK, it definitely shouldn't be as hard as it is to get an education, but thats the way it is. It certainly wasn't fair in New Orleans in the 20s, but I can pretty much say being a musician is a privilege and we have a lot of fun and have some great nights out.
At 45, I still love coming home at 1:30 in the Morning
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Good for you!
About that... I never had issues with not being able to sleep but I think the meds *can* have a hand in creating negative feelings (one of the listed side-effects of the very light stuff I take is ... suicide). Basically they make you live in a constant grey world. Originally Posted by Heybopper
A few months I started befriending someone on social media who got me curious about the creatine she takes. Apparently it can have positive effects "on the brain" but the reason I decided to try taking it was to see if it'd help with a muscular issue (sore/stiff shoulder) that wouldn't go away. It may be a placebo effect but I didn't purposely prolong the interval between taking my pink pills without feeling the need for them.
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Thanks for the update. I missed this thread the first time around.
You are approaching this as a patron of the arts, who is also a participant. And although you’re not getting paid (yet), others who are associated with you are.
To me, it’s an investment for a future in which jazz is known and appreciated. If there’s no scene, then create one. It will take root with your nurturance, as it already seems to be doing.
Gigging and getting paid to ply one’s art is important but it’s not necessarily the only thing. There are some things beyond the individual gig-to-gig bottom line. It doesn’t sound like exploitation for “free” live music. You have a vision and are willing to put in the investment in time and finances to bring it to fruition.
And you are onto something. I noticed, at least in my locale, that there is a growing interest and curiosity in jazz among my Gen Z students. They may not have money now, but they will and you will have played a role in creating something lasting.
I wish you all the best. Hang in there, and do keep us posted.
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Can you can leverage the high pay of the wedding gigs to subsidize the low-paying jazz gigs? If so, you might be able to break even, build a committed group of players, and cross-promote the jazz gigs at the wedding gigs. Originally Posted by Heybopper
For example... every wedding reception starts with a "dinner music" set that is a perfect place to trot out an hour's worth of jazz standards. This is not the time to blow your most outrageous solo on Ornithology; it IS the time for a vocalist to do The Way You Look Tonight and for you to mention at the end of the dinner music set that you'll be playing every Thursday night at Cafe Fwiblob for the next month.
Arrange with your call musicians that your first call for the high-paying wedding gigs will be those who are interested in playing the low-paying jazz gig. Now, the setlist for the wedding reception is not going to be a jazz setlist. It's going to be pop, rock, and r&b dance music. You want players who can and will learn "Soul Man" TO THE NOTE and perhaps can blow their own blistering solo over those changes. These players will understand that wedding receptions are not "art" gigs; that's why they pay more than jazz gigs. They know that the whole band has to show up on time, looking and sounding VERY polished. Playing a wedding reception is not playing music; it's being entertainers, helping the attendees to have a good time. This is taking "now I have to talk to the audience" to a whole different level. If you are not up for this, make sure you find a magnetic frontperson who knows how to help the audience to have fun.
Essentially, you looking for players who can be two bands in one. This may be more than you want to do to finance the jazz side of things, but it's an idea.
Also, another VERY well-paying gig that is perhaps a bit less demanding than the reception is the wedding ceremony itself. This is really more the domain of vocalists, string quartets, and organists moreso than jazz guitarists, but you could do solo classic guitar (i.e. acoustic nylon string) or just take a booking agent's fee for setting up your vocalist or keyboard player with that gig. IDK how it works in the UK, but you need a booking agent's license to do this in the US.
I don't want to derail this thread into a discussion of the merits or drawbacks of playing weddings. There have probably been many such threads on JGB already. But since you mentioned weddings, the idea of the money gig subsidizing the art gig came to mind...
EDIT: I've been thinking of deleting this post ever since I put it up, because the-money-gig-subsidizing-the-jazz-gig is a LOT of work, maybe not worth it. But I'll leave it up so you can all pile on and say what a bad idea it is :-)Last edited by starjasmine; 11-29-2024 at 07:29 PM.
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Hi. I really appreciate the comments and advice and for everyones input its very kind.
For the last 10 years ive been trying to get paid gigs. We had a good run with a couple of agents and did some weddings.
I feel different now. I feel that my goals have changed. I dont want the primary reason I play to be for money. I know it sounds impossible and we all have to live and support ourselves but if you live where I live and say you will only go out for even a minimum of £40, you won't get many gigs. Absolutely no one is making a living from just performing. Some bands start up and have a good run for a year and then thats it, the audience is bored and the band split up.
There are one or two singers in the area that do the early 20s style Jazz, but they dont work hard to promote it and people dont turn up. The venue pays them £120 for a duo and then decides that Jazz doesn't bring in the customers so they never have it again.
I had a childrens book published. Its a simple book, nicely illustrated and it cost me £2000. m learning about advertising and promotion and where to do it. I dont have much. I rent my house, car is worth about £900 but its super reliable. I have some nice clothes, I eat ok, Have a good amount of gear but never have more than £200 in my bank once ive paid bills and rent.
The meds are a worry, I never had any meds until I hit 3rd year at uni and I have no idea why sleep is now such a problem but what I do have is time and im using it to my full advantage.
The gigs to me are like a lesson. I used to pay for tuition at uni and one on one lessons. It was a culture of sitting in one room asking questions and then sitting in another room practicing.
up until about three years ago, gig anxiety was pretty bad. It would kick in about four days before the gig and would get worse each day.
I had good gigs and not so good gigs and not knowing weather it was going to be a good gig or a bad gig used to cause me worry.
The two main things that helped were getting used to tunes at all tempos ( 15bpm making the click the 1st beat of every two bars to 220bpm) and tunes in all keys. then really working on swing and rhythm.
I think once I got confident with my playing, I got confident to do the gigs.
I used to sit down all the time, but now I stand and now I can talk to the audience and constantly thank them and tell them that I am grateful they came along.
I think its deciding who you want to play in front of.
Do you want to play for an audience that appreciates Jazz or Just an audience that likes music.
We dont have a big scene here in Norfolk but we do have a huge live music scene. There are about 30 venues and pubs that have live music and I just realised that if you want to be a part of it, you have to find a way in. There is nothing worse than a Musician with no gigs unless you have made a decision to spend some time to woodshed or you just want to teach.
I have no family or children so just have my self to worry about.
Does the Jazz musician make a sound if he is in his room and there is no one to hear him?? Jim Hall said in one of his books, that playing Jazz is the reward for all your hard work not the money.
This situation is an odd one, It does have its downsides and everything has to be thought through. Too much promotion and people get fed up of you, too many gigs and people get fed up with you, you have to keep the musicians you play with happy if you upset any of the musicians you play with, its game over and you're knackered. There are some great musicians here that are a bit older but no one will play with them
That said you have to look after the musicians you play with but not worry about other musicians. Ive found other musicians to not be very supportive.
Most of my friends on Facebook are musicians but I never get any likes or comments from them but im getting to know new bands and people from being out and about.
I dont know how it will pan out. I dont know if I would be able to do more than one gig a week. The pianist at the last gig, said he was teaching till 7pm, then had a bite to eat and came straight to the gig. I couldn't do that, id be exhausted. My friend from Uni in Australia is in New York and he used to to do two sets starting at 7pm and then another two sets starting at 12:30am
For now though Im happy. I know what I need to work on and im really liking the task of choosing tunes, learning new ones, choosing the right original composition and balancing the set and talking to people at the gigs
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Needs must, and I applaud you for making these decisions. I do a number of gigs where everyone else gets paid but I don't due to the complicated funding path; basically if you organise it, you can't be paid from local government funding.
But there are lots of gigs where I do get paid so it works out in the end. If no-one takes it in hand, the many excellent musicians in my area will have to move to find work and the whole thing dies.
One pioneer not too far from me actually took over the pub in which he had a residency so that he and the others he wanted to feature would have a venue. Several years on, he's still in the game. Needs must.
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Heybopper, you sound like someone who'd have a lot to give as a teacher yourself!
Well, that's definitely a solution, but does he still find the time to practise and play? Running a pub is not the laziest way to make ends meet (unless things are different in the UK?). Originally Posted by Irishmuso
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Hi
I used to teach in Australia but got deported in 2009 ( long story) I found it quite hard. Out of 25 students only about 6 would practice. Those six made it a joy but most had no interest at all and wouldn't put any effort in. I dont know how people do it for a living. There was someone in my village charging £35 an hour and he would do all the grades but I dont think he is doing much now.
I looked into becoming a secondary school teacher but even with my degree in Jazz, diploma in Music and Maths and English gcse I still needed to do another year teacher training and there are only three places a year for that in Norfolk.
The diploma I did in music here in Norwich was terrible, its run by btec they run it at city colleges all over England and there is another institution called access to music, but they dont teach one on one instrument tuition so people are graduating without being able to play. Its just essay writing, research, computer based tech. I only got into uni as I had a private jazz guitar teacher for two years and even then I struggled.
I havent had a good experience with the Uk education and I was speaking to the junior school teacher at my last gig and he left. said it was too much hard work.
I am sure we have great Universities here for music, Trinity, Leeds, Birmingham, Guildhall but Living in this cities on a low income wouldn't be nice. I was Lucky my sister lives in Adelaide and there was a Jazz program there although Australian immigration sucks
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great post..but the noise of those drinkers..could hardly hear the band . guitar sounded great..
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I'd say that's the reality when you play in a pub or restaurant in Europe, if they don't charge for a concert. I understand Birdland do, for FV's guitar night, otherwise I'd expect the experience to be the same in the average US pub/café/restaurant. Originally Posted by voxo
Most people will just talk louder to hear each other over the background "noise" if they don't come specifically for the music.
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And in Winter, sometimes, you then have to drive home, late at night, on a dark, icy road, in the fog. Originally Posted by RJVB
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Patrons of a venue in the city are more likely to walk home rather than drink'n'drive Originally Posted by GuyBoden
And in Winter, sometimes, you then have to drive home, late at night, on a dark, icy road, in the fog.
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Ill take the noise of the drinkers over an empty room any day
Jazz is just not that popular in Norfolk UK. The last gig I did I really enjoyed but it was very frosty and misty and the drive is 40 mins each way.
What I love is im seeing older people say 65-70, come in on their own have a few beers and stagger out right at the end of the night like 1:00am
On this night, this lovely chap about 70, comes up, says he really likes it and we have a chat. Then outside he says can you shine your torch on my bike lock as ive had to much to drink and cant see it. He then wobbles off at 2:00am down the icy roads no helmet with visibility at about 5 feet
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Thankyou for the kind words its much appreciated cheers Originally Posted by voxo
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Hi
here is an original tune from last night. Its rough and ready and its the first time we played it.
It was a good vibe and im learning lots. If we do the gig as a trio, then ive realised that I need to make my solos more interesting . I think adding more chords and taking my time and more space is what I need to work on. Ill post a clip from the next gig.
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Tell those people chattering away to shut the fuck up. Originally Posted by Heybopper
Hi
I dont know if anyone is interested, but I thought I would update the thread as I have now had two residencies in Norwich UK twice a month now for 6 months.
What a learning curve. To summarise, I got two gigs in the city each month at two pubs. Both pub bays £70 and its up to me what I do with those nights. Norwich,Norfolk UK is a rural part of England but there are about 17 Jazz musicians in the area and some are the very best ive ever played with, but only about three have a gig once a month, the rest are teaching and not playing at all. No one knows who they are.
So Ive been paying that £70 to the drummer, another £70 out of my pocket to the bassist and I get no payment, but we do get a couple of free Lagers
Last night we had Simon Brown who has been running Norwich Jazz club on Piano as well so that gig cost me £140.
Is it worth it you might ask? without a doubt. I get to play with two great musicians, a double bassist and drummer in the city twice a month.
Norwich now has a regular Jazz scene. Our gigs and the one Simon puts on once a month mean that there is live jazz in the city nearly once a week. The two pubs I play it are right in the city centre. I am 45 and im seeing young people in the bars really liking what we do. Some of these young people are listening to bands that I knew in the 80s and 90,s Sonic youth, the chameleons, the pixies and its great to see.
The Louis Marchesi in Norwich is a pub and last night there was a reggae band downstairs and us on the ground floor and above us was a rockabilly band and they all came down to watch us after they had finished. So many people come up to us and chat and they all have good things to say and its a great atmosphere.
Its just great to be around other musicians and other bands of all kinds of genres (im always learning about new genres now) and just talking to and encouraging each other. Shaking hands and saying have a good set
Ive had to give a lot of thought to the set. Im playing all the heads but I have to make the set interesting for people who dont know much about the music.
I have had to think about presentation. I now play standing up. I now HAVE to talk to the audience. I have to thank them for coming, I have to introduce the band and at least some of the songs. I have to chat to the bar staff and say how grateful we are and I have to chat with all the weird and wonderful people that make up the cities night life.
I have to think about how we can connect.
Norwich is full of tribute acts these days, Americana, folk and pub rock and I deeply believe that the paying customer should be aware that there is other stuff going on. That there is a core of hard working musicians that have put in many hours.
Its done a huge amount for my confidence. When I graduated from Jazz school in 2009, I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression and ive been trying out various meds ever since. I cant sleep without meds. Since then I have battled with the feeling of not being good enough.
For many years I wasn't. Everything I can do on the guitar has taken me many years. Nothing came easy and every concept has taken me months to years to learn. Its just the way it is for me. Some people seem to just grasp things very quick. I saw other guitarist excel very quickly in the 3 year university degree like from playing blue Bossa in first year to giant steps in second year to stablemates in third year.
Its been 10 years since I graduated. 10 years of medication and 10 years of practice.
I learnt to do a website, pay for film promo, do instagram, do Facebook, promote each gig in the local news, various pages online then take photos at gigs or have an audience member to do videos.
The nights are getting busy. How many times in the past has a pub put on a jazz band and no one is there. No one has advertised it, No one knows the tunes the band are playing and the pub says no thanks to any more jazz.
Some musicians are terrible. They dont advertise, they dont comment on the posts, they never bring anyone down to watch and they dont put the gigs on their websites and they want £70 a gig.
Anyway thanks so much for reading all this I do appreciate it.
Last but not least the tunes. The tunes are hugely important. It has to groove, the set has to have familiar elements and unfamiliar elements.
I have had to learn over 70 heads, be bop, latin, swing, straight ahead, blues. I cant read so all the heads are memorised. The audience might not know invitation, but they know the sound of a minor chord so give them a minor vamp for a while, noodle, give them some sounds and then play the tune. We are also doing originals and pop, but choosing the pop very carefully, so far we have Prince the beautiful ones, Bob Dylan girl from the north country
Anyway I think you just have to do it. If you want it to happen then make it happen. its not fair, it sucks being poor, we should get a fair rate of pay, there should be more awareness of Jazz, there should be more support for musicians in the UK, it definitely shouldn't be as hard as it is to get an education, but thats the way it is. It certainly wasn't fair in New Orleans in the 20s, but I can pretty much say being a musician is a privilege and we have a lot of fun and have some great nights out.
At 45, I still love coming home at 1:30 in the Morning
I'm kidding. Looks like fun.
The Beautiful Ones. Good choice! That's my favorite song by Prince.
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