Do you call the tunes at jam sessions or gigs?

[JazzerEU]

When I was at university, I was mocked and made fun of for knowing too many songs when I would call songs at jam sessions only to find out that my peers didn’t know them. I had entered university knowing about 150 songs in all 12 keys, and graduated having learned about 600 in all 12 keys and the lyrics to about 120 of them. Post college, I found that other musicians in town would get offended if I called a song only to find out they didn’t know it. I predominantly accompanied singers during my career prior to my retirement from professional music, so I was never keen on learning horn player tunes.

What I learned from these experiences is don’t be the one to call the tune on a jam session or at a gig, you’re far more likely to offend someone than if you had just kept your mouth shut. YMMV, I spoke with other musicians from other scenes and who went to other universities and it’s possible my experiences may be unique in this regards.

[rpjazzguitar]

I can hardly think of a jam where there were no charts or phones or tablets at all. Well, one or two.

Last time I was at one which discouraged charts, I called I Should Care and was asked to call something else because not all the horn players knew it. So, I called Another You and everybody knew that one. There were no music stands. The organist, who was kicking bass, had his phone out with IRealPro. And, as a sitter-in, I only had to play the tunes I called.

Since I don't know the changes to hundreds of tunes, I'd have to turn down an invitation that required no use of IRealPro or other charts -- except I've never been in a situation where anybody made that a requirement. More commonly though, it seems possible to get by with what I do know, which are tunes commonly seen on top 50 jam tune lists, and the like.

I play with working players all the time, jams and gigs, and there are almost always charts. I see regularly working bands with defined repertoire and great players and I usually see charts. Not that they don't know the basic tunes, but they're playing arrangements. Without charts you have to play tunes everybody knows and there's a good chance that the better players are tired of playing them.

Now, there may be a higher level of working player, where everybody knows hundreds of tunes, but I'm not at that level, if it exists. The last time I did a casual at a fancy hotel with some old pros, we played easy standards - and the leader provided charts even though we could have done most of the tunes without them.

Oh. One anecdote comes to mind. I was at a jam at a camp where a prominent musician was a teacher. He showed up to jam and took over. He stopped somebody from handing out charts. "No charts!". He was adamant. Everybody went along. Then he called a lot of obscure tunes, whispered the changes to the bassist (the teacher was playing keys), and everybody else had to figure it out on the fly. The tunes weren't impossible, but they weren't super easy either.

I ended up thinking, "If you're the guy who says no charts, then you shouldn't call any tunes. Let's see how you do when somebody else calls them".

[Christian Miller]

When I was at university, I was mocked and made fun of for knowing too many songs when I would call songs at jam sessions only to find out that my peers didn’t know them. I had entered university knowing about 150 songs in all 12 keys, and graduated having learned about 600 in all 12 keys and the lyrics to about 120 of them. Post college, I found that other musicians in town would get offended if I called a song only to find out they didn’t know it. I predominantly accompanied singers during my career prior to my retirement from professional music, so I was never keen on learning horn player tunes.

What I learned from these experiences is don’t be the one to call the tune on a jam session or at a gig, you’re far more likely to offend someone than if you had just kept your mouth shut. YMMV, I spoke with other musicians from other scenes and who went to other universities and it’s possible my experiences may be unique in this regards.

Haha… you can’t win!

(Some people are also VERY insecure… I don’t think you’d get the reaction from good pro straightahead players, they love to get into a less often played standard.)


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[AllanAllen]

When I was at university, I was mocked and made fun of for knowing too many songs when I would call songs at jam sessions only to find out that my peers didn’t know them.

There is a standard repertoire you should know if you're going to jam sessions. If you know Cry Me a River, Easy Street and I'm in the Mood For Love but not Blue Bossa I would probably say something.

[AllanAllen]

Even though the piano player played like sh-t the whole night, I just say 'sounded good' to make him feel better. He says nothing. Then I speak with him on the phone a few days later, and he says "You did two things that bothered me the other night. Your solos were too long, and you put down the other guitar player.
I said, "I played solos that were too long at a jam session? You've got to be kidding. And I wasn't putting down the other guitar player. I was just telling you that the guy subbed for me on a gig once, and they had so many train wrecks that they had to stop playing and ask him what was wrong. He said "I'm really an R&B player, not a jazz player."
He had nothing to say. That was in November, and I haven't spoke to those ass hats since then, and hopefully never will.
I don't know if that was the result being 'allowed' to call a tune at the jam session or what, but they asked me to, so they can shove it. Your experience is not unique AFAIC.

Sounds to me that the piano player was upset that there had been a mutiny and took it out on you. Not the most emotionally mature thing to do, but his 5 year run as leader was ripped away from him and then you called a song nobody knew while tensions were at their peak. It's on them for bumbling through it twice and then ending on that sour note.

[drbhrb]

I don't ever give people a hard time when they pull out the app to read a tune but I will encourage them to just call a different tune they know. I'd rather play Blue Bossa for the 1,000th time with a whole band who knows it then to call obscure tunes that require half the band to have their head buried in the chart.

[mr. beaumont]

They made fun of you for knowing too many tunes?

[pauln]

Questions, because I've never used a chart in practice, rehearsal, performance, or studio recording.

What falls under "doesn't know a tune"?
Never heard it before?
Never practiced, rehearsed, performed it before (with or without a chart)?
Any of these but still can't play it under any circumstances?
Or is there an expectation that with a chart one should be able to play it?

[AllanAllen]

Questions, because I've never used a chart in practice, rehearsal, performance, or studio recording.

What falls under "doesn't know a tune"?
Never heard it before?
Never practiced, rehearsed, performed it before (with or without a chart)?
Any of these but still can't play it under any circumstances?
Or is there an expectation that with a chart one should be able to play it?

This is a grey area and can get academic and philosophical quickly. I feel if you play a tune off a chart you don't know it. It's still music, and can still be jazz, but to know a tune, you need to have it in your head.

I think "doesn't know a tune", cannot be defined in a way that will satisfy you. Based on how rigidly you seem take things.

[Ukena]

This is a grey area and can get academic and philosophical quickly. I feel if you play a tune off a chart you don't know it. It's still music, and can still be jazz, but to know a tune, you need to have it in your head.

I think "doesn't know a tune", cannot be defined in a way that will satisfy you. Based on how rigidly you seem take things.

There's two different things here: jams and gigs. At jams, everyone is playing what ever he or she wants to play on each tune, hoping that if fits in with what everyone else is playing.

On a gig, there may be arrangements. If there's an arrangement, there bloody well better be charts. I live in NYC, and I've never been to hear a jazz band (not a trio or quartet) that didn't have charts. Wynton Marsalis always has charts for his bands. You can't believe that those cats don't know Satin Doll.

[rpjazzguitar]

Any time there isn't a standard, widely accepted definition for a term, there is the potential for a lengthy argument.

For me, "knowing a tune" is somewhere between 1) scuffling through the changes in the key I'm used to while somebody else plays the melody and, at the other extreme, 2) being to play the tune perfectly, melody and harmony, in any key, with the proper feel and all the hits. It may involve knowing different arrangements that are commonly played. Stated another way, whatever there is to know about a tune, you know it.

If somebody asks me on a bandstand if I know a tune, they typically mean the standard key (unless it's a singer) and the usual kind of head arrangement. If I can scuffle through the tune, I'll say I know it and manage. I may have to interpret the head rather than nail the composer's version. If I'm uncertain at all, I'm inclined to pull out Irealpro. I might be a better musician if I didn't do that, but I hate not being able to play the right changes. Anyway, over time, the usual suspects sink in.

[pauln]

This is a grey area and can get academic and philosophical quickly. I feel if you play a tune off a chart you don't know it. It's still music, and can still be jazz, but to know a tune, you need to have it in your head.

I think "doesn't know a tune", cannot be defined in a way that will satisfy you. Based on how rigidly you seem take things.

I was asking about tune calling common practice expectations and etiquette of others.


(Rigid, really?)

[rpjazzguitar]

Another point about reading.

Ever see a big band where the players weren't reading?

If they were reading, did it suck?

I think that it's perfectly possible to play well while reading, if you're used to doing that. Sure, a chart could be too difficult for a particular player, but, on the whole, they're not.

I know one top pro who admits that he likes to have a chart in front of him. He said "it frees me up".

Ideally, everybody would know the tune perfectly and have full attention on the interaction. But, falling short of that, by reading, doesn't necessarily suck.

[AllanAllen]

There's two different things here: jams and gigs. At jams, everyone is playing what ever he or she wants to play on each tune, hoping that if fits in with what everyone else is playing.

Sort of, but not.... I think the whole point of jazz is to have a group that listens and plays together, not play whatever you want and hope it works.

Though, I have been to blues jams where a guitar player puts his head down and starts soloing and 7 choruses later, he's still looking at the floor noodling away.

[AllanAllen]

I was asking about tune calling common practice expectations and etiquette of others.


(Rigid, really?)

The comments you made on the synchronization thread came to mind. It wasn't a put down, you seem to take things seriously and deeply consider them.

The standard I hold myself to is, I won't call a tune unless I can play the melody and the changes without a sheet in the common key. That is enough for me to know it, but that's only the threshold to get to the starting line.

Now, if I'm at a jam and someone else calls Summer Samba, I can say "I'm familiar with the song, but I don't now the tune" meaning I have heard it but haven't studied it. Then I'll offer to pull up iReal or sit out. Someone once called Lets Fall In Love With Love and I said I don't know that at all and sat out, I didn't even know the song name, let alone have a recording to mentally refer to.

[Mick-7]

Another point about reading. Ever see a big band where the players weren't reading?
If they were reading, did it suck?

Not a great analogy because big band charts are often fairly complicated - but I understand your point.

An effective mnemonic trick for remembering a lot of tunes is by classifying them by their chord changes, as on Ralph Patt's Vanilla Book site.

[pamosmusic]

Another point about reading.

Ever see a big band where the players weren't reading?

If they were reading, did it suck?

I used to work at a jazz club where the Mingus Big Band played Mondays. They always had charts but my understanding is that almost none of them were complete after thirty years of rips and tears and lost pages.

[rpjazzguitar]

I play in two big bands, sub in another, and in a 4 horn band. Everybody is reading everything. The ensemble passages sound good and so do the solo sections which are rhythm section and horn. I think it helps a lot when you have an aural mental image of what the tune is supposed to sound like, but it works even if you're reading. In fact, the reading probably keeps it more accurate.

[drbhrb]

I play in two big bands, sub in another, and in a 4 horn band. Everybody is reading everything. The ensemble passages sound good and so do the solo sections which are rhythm section and horn. I think it helps a lot when you have an aural mental image of what the tune is supposed to sound like, but it works even if you're reading. In fact, the reading probably keeps it more accurate.

Big band is a total different animal, it's all arrangements. In a jazz jam setting where the hope is the group will be listening and reacting to each other well enough to make some decent music without an arrangement I think people reading lead sheets is counter to that goal.

[Ukena]

[..]Someone once called Lets Fall In Love With Love and I said I don't know that at all and sat out, I didn't even know the song name, let alone have a recording to mentally refer to.

I suspect you misheard what was called. What you report seems like a mash of two standards – Let's Fall in Love (Arlen and Koehler) and Falling in Love with Love (Rodgers and Hart)– both of which are worth knowing. And of course, there's always Let's Do It, Let's Fall in Love.

If what you say was actually what was called, and what was played, then I can certainly understand why you wouldn't know it or have a recording of it in your head. Must have been an original composition by someone who everyone else at the jam knew. The internet has no record of the existence of such a song.

[rpjazzguitar]

Big band is a total different animal, it's all arrangements. In a jazz jam setting where the hope is the group will be listening and reacting to each other well enough to make some decent music without an arrangement I think people reading lead sheets is counter to that goal.

Big band charts routinely include solo sections. At that point, it's a small group, at least until the horn backgrounds start, if there are any.

And, interacting with each other is important in this context, despite the fact that there are charts.

[JazzerEU]

Yes, I won’t name which university for fear of retribution.

[JazzerEU]

They made fun of you for knowing too many tunes?

Yes, my peers mocked me and called me “rainman” and that I had autism. The faculty were good people, the other students in the music school were less than desirable people.

[AllanAllen]

I suspect you misheard what was called. What you report seems like a mash of two standards – Let's Fall in Love (Arlen and Koehler) and Falling in Love with Love (Rodgers and Hart)– both of which are worth knowing. And of course, there's always Let's Do It, Let's Fall in Love.

If what you say was actually what was called, and what was played, then I can certainly understand why you wouldn't know it or have a recording of it in your head. Must have been an original composition by someone who everyone else at the jam knew. The internet has no record of the existence of such a song.

Yeah it was one of those first two. It was last summer and I never went back to learn it. I got through the changes on iReal good enough for the time. I can’t know everything, so I just moved on with my own studies.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes, my peers mocked me and called me “rainman” and that I had autism. The faculty were good people, the other students in the music school were less than desirable people.

Envy can be an ugly emotion.