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Yes. It would to me. If you have to "go to work", at least it's something you enjoy: playing music. Playing Kenny G music for 3 hours is still better than rebuilding a transmission (to a musician).
Originally Posted by Peter C
And I say this at 55 years old: I've lived most of life. As a musician trapped in a blue collar's body. You do what you have to to make a living. I'd rather be making a living playing "pop jazz" (or even just pop!) than repairing and renovating homes. Or any of the other jobs I've had.
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01-30-2025 09:16 AM
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On the one hand, Wes Montgomery came from a family of notable musicians. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
On the other hand (according to Wikipedia) he didn't play guitar until he was 19 or 20 and married. He worked as a welder and milkman until he was 25, when he spent two years traveling with Lionel Hampton's band (and reputedly called his wife and kids every night). After a couple of years he came back off the road and played local gigs. When until the Montgomery Brothers finally pulled out of Indy for California in 1957 Wes was 34. The Creed Taylor pop-jazz records were in 1965. Three years later he was gone.
It's very easy to assemble those facts into a picture of a person who tried to balance music and family for years, who didn't have financial success until relatively late in life, and who would not have leapt to the conclusion that playing Beatles tunes to provide for his family was a bad thing.
Scratch golfer too. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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While it's sort of true that Wes didn't play guitar until 19, he played 4 string tenor guitar for several years before that. 19 is when he first got a 6 string guitar.
Kenny G apparently makes his audience feel something. I respect that. I've heard him interviewed and he was humble about his musicianship. Fine with me.
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That's what it's ALL about. It's all it's ever really been about. Feeling something, both the creator and the audience. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I enjoy playing stuff by people like Ritenour, Metheny, Larry Carlton etc and by some accounts that's smooth jazz. Also people like Marc Antoine and Acoustic Alchemy. We always add some of these to our gigs and people seem to enjoy them. No harm no foul. Would I enjoy playing octave chords to Anita Baker songs for three hours, no probably not but there are enough decent songs out there that I can find songs that engage the audience and keep me happy too.
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This is a fascinating discussion, and going back over a decade! Much of the more recent posts are about Wes Montgomery's career, which of course is because he is in the title of the thread. In some of the earlier parts of the discussion there were also questions about coping with working in music in general, and maintaining enthusiasm playing for a living.
I'm currently a jazz enthusiast, having picked up the guitar again ten years ago after a long hiatus. I count Wes Montgomery, like many, among my early influences. I was never able to do the octave thing, but I loved the sheer joy his playing exudes, especially in the live small group recordings. He was so melodic and fluent. I'm not familiar with his later records, but one of the things I picked up from him in general is playing with the thumb.
During the 1980s, I had a go at being a work-a-day musician. Playing in a wedding band involved some smooth jazz, we did a number of Spyro Gyra tunes and some Kenny G, as well as the pop songs of the day. That paid the bills, and I was also playing in a big band and a jazz combo, doing some odd gigs and studio work here and there, and teaching.
But by the 1990s I was burning out and got disillusioned with the entertainer lifestyle, so I quit music and sold all of my gear to study and travel. While working in a non-music field, I discovered quite a strong affinity for world music, especially African and Arabic-Islamic musics. I got pretty good on the Gambian kora and the Egyptian oud, even to the point of doing a few gigs with them. I also studied other string instruments, such as the Iranian tanbur and the Turkish saz, and I tried my hands at tabla drums. It was quite a journey.
About ten years ago, after having settled in Japan, the guitar beckoned me back and I picked it up again, rediscovering my love for and fascination with improvisational music, and at times porting into jazz some of the world music stylings, inspired by Gabor Szabo and Bill Frisell. I also dug out my old lessons, and rediscovered Wes Montgomery, as well as Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell, etc., and developed a new found love for Charlie Christian.
As an ardent amateur (in the sense of Andy Merrifield's notion of "doing what you love") I play often at open jazz jam sessions, several times a month at a few regional venues. All my practicing, for the most part, is learning tunes to play at jams. What I love about jam sessions is the unpredictable spontaneity, and the community feeling of playing jazz with others for fun. I got good enough to be invited on some gigs, which I accepted, but only just enough to remind me why I quit gigging in the first place. I have the deepest respect (and even some awe) for those who are able to play music for audiences, but to me that suppresses my enthusiasm for guitar. To each their own, I suppose, but maybe that's a reminder to know ourselves first and foremost, what we can--and cannot--do with music.
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Those smooth albums Wes made have a stellar cast of players.
He gave so much, Grooveyard alone…have mercy, I’m fine with him getting paid.
Artie Shaw said three chords for beauty, one for rent.
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So good to see these Cosmic Gumbo posts. Really miss that guy.
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Metheny is definitely NOT smooth jazz. His We Live Here album is the most 'smooth jazz' of all of his albums but still it is NOT a smooth jazz record, he just has tunes on that album with a more RnB influence than most of his other records, but it is far from a smooth jazz record. Originally Posted by StormyMonday
IMO smooth jazz suffered from a lack of creativity and a lack of daring by the smooth jazz artists themselves. They were so locked into the RnB portion of the smooth jazz equation that the JAZZ itself got pushed too far to the backburner for me, and this is coming from a guy who LOVES RnB music. I like my jazz music to take me on a journey, and yes, take some harmonic and melodic chances, but the majority of the smooth jazz I've ever heard was a bit too tame in that regard and leaning too much to the RnB side while the jazz side suffered for it. Even on Metheny's we Live here album (which is his closest to a smooth jazz record that he's ever made, and a great record, by the way, You also find a tune like "Azur Blue" which is about as far away from "smooth" as you can get.
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As a 'Rough Jazz' pioneer, I feel that the "Rough Jazz" genre needs more publicity headlines such as:
'Rough Jazz', it's not smooth, not even abrasive and definitely not coarse.
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I don't disagree with you on Pat. I was in a trio and we did "Here To Stay" off that We Live Here album and it definitely was a lot more than most smooth stuff. Labels are tough and IMO not relevant in a lot of ways, some of Pat's stuff would be better described as "accessible" rather than "smooth", something like "Daybreak" off New Chataqua. That's a song I played on a gig that is definitely not a jazz gig, but the crowd seemed very open to it. Luckily there are a lot of songs like that, in an acoustic duo setting we try to mix a few of those into each set with non jazz material to keep it interesting for us. Songs that people who aren't really into jazz at all will still enjoy hearing that we will enjoy playing. Originally Posted by AdroitMage
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I don’t know. I’m glad there’s good musicians making music in other styles. Better than bad musicians making it.
Paul Desmond gets flack for being corny and he rules. So who cares?
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Methney's got all that chorus and synthesizer. That's smooth jazz.
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Song X is quite lumpy jazz
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
This is probably the best Metheny I've ever heard. Thank you.
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Interesting choice. First it brought to mind Charles Ives, almost like two different pieces played at the same time that somehow works. I’ve always respected Ives for his forays, especially his inherent playfulness. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Toward the middle, it sort of settled around a modal drone kind of thing, and then to a cartoon like dancing.
The Mrs. was born in a music culture that favors poetry based vocal music and the instruments coalescing with that, where there is a subtle affinity for improvisation on stringed lutes.
I played the above Metheny piece for her and her first response was that it is tiring. She doesn’t much care for horns, which she sometimes makes clear when I bring her to my jazz jam sessions. But she then noted that the Metheny guitar-horn duo was playful.
I think that it’s the playful spirit that keeps jazz alive, in two senses. Jazz musicians play music in the sense of playing songs, whether for audiences or recording or just because. But we are also in a way playing around with songs, not merely reproducing them.
I’m on board with that playing around, whether it’s smooth or lumpy. As for making a living, we all do what we gotta do, and I respect that, too.
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Yes Mr. Beaumont this answer is copied and pasted from AI, but I think it expresses my opinion on the matter beautifully AND saves me time vs writing it from scratch. Pat Metheny is generally not considered a smooth jazz artist, though this can be a bit of a contentious topic among jazz fans.Metheny is primarily known as a contemporary jazz guitarist who has worked across many styles - from straight ahead jazz to fusion, avant-garde, and Brazilian-influenced music. His work with the Pat Metheny Group includes sophisticated compositions, complex harmonies, and genuine improvisation.That said, some of his more accessible, melodic work - particularly certain Pat Metheny Group albums from the 1980s and 1990s - has a polished, radio-friendly sound that shares some characteristics with smooth jazz (lush production, memorable melodies, relaxed tempos). This has led to some of his music being played on smooth jazz radio stations. However, Metheny himself has been critical of the smooth jazz genre and doesn't identify with it. >>>>His music typically has more harmonic complexity, adventurous improvisation, and artistic ambition than what's typically labeled smooth jazz.
Some dudes tried to get me to start a smooth jazz band with them once, and I would have done it just for the gig money, BUT they refused to get a decent synthesizer player. What the _ _ _ _ is a smooth jazz band without a good synth player (unless you have a horn section to fill in for the synths)? They bought in some joker once with a keyboard not much better than a cheap Casio keyboard you would find at Walmart LOL. So it just wasn't working without the keyboards. Sure you can do a JAZZ trio w guitar and bass and drums (which is cool IMO), BUT that format will NOT end up sounding anything like smooth jazz. Plus the drummer was TERRIBLE, I mean TERRIBLE and played the same inane beat on almost every song, obviously put in 0 practice time, and yet was trying to be the head honcho in the band controlling what music we play, etc. Even the bass player, who he thought was his friend, admitted to me that he 'really' didn't like the dude, they just worked at the same place. I read an article where 20 Grammy award winner Pat Metheny said the best musician should be the leader of the band. He also said, though, that if you are the best musician in the band, you should be trying to find other musicians even better than you to learn from.
Edit: I'm a fairly easy going guy and can get along with most people, so I told him I could come up with some really melodic stuff that I'm sure "smooth jazz" fans would appreciate and I would be willing toi mix those tunes with the best of his RnB tunes for improv, but dude just refused to play ANYTHING that wasn't an RnB tune. It just won't work when the LEAST talented guy in the band is a control freak and won't compromise one iota.
Even Pat had Lyle, a virtuoso pianist in his own right, kicking back and laying down lush piano and synth pads for Pat to improvise on top of. Lyle was an amazing virtuoso pianist in his own right. I honesty cannot think of even one smooth jazz group that is guitar bass and drums, they ALL have a sytnh player in addition to the guitar and bass.
I asked AI to name even just one smooth jazz band that is only guitar, bass, and drums. It said that is RARE and it then suggested with "The Aristocrats" with Guthrie Govan on guitar, LOL. I listened to some of their music (didn't much care for it) and it was anything but smooth jazz, it was actually pretty rough, avant-garde and not anything like what smooth jazz is about. So there you go. Even AI could not name even ONE smooth jazz group that is just guitar, bass, and drums, it just won't work without the keys, IMO. Now a hard-core jazz trio with guitar, bass, and drums, on the other hand, is quite doable and something I like.Last edited by AdroitMage; 11-01-2025 at 08:30 PM.
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I fully understand that the Pat Metheny group albums are fully sophisticated musical statements and they are playing their asses off but it doesn't stop annoying me. It's one of those things where I go in and I'm thinking "it can't really annoy me the way I think it does" and then I listen and....nope, it still does.
Not all of it though. That intro to Above the Treetops is nuts beautiful.
Maybe in 10 years I will be deep into it.
PM is a fascinatingly weird human to me. I wonder what it's like to be his friend.
At the moment I'm listening obsessively to Blues for Pat off Joshua Redman's Wish, he mentions that it's his favorite track with Charlie Haden in the Rick Beato interview and it is smoking. My favorite Pat is just him killing it on the guitar.
I saw him live twice in the last couple years, one was a sort of retrospective show where he played a little bit from every part of his career. Even a little Orkestrion. The guy is so on, it's nuts. The show was long and I was exhausted a bit, I wonder how he felt. He took a synth guitar solo that was wild.
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Isn't that jagged jazz? or sharp jazz? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Interestingly enough, Metheny has said about this album that be doesn't understand the first thing about Ornette Colemans "Harmolodics" approach, nor does he know anyone that understands it!
Yet his playing is brilliant..
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There’s also this
I think Metheny has pretty much run the gamut
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He is obviously really into music, especially jazz. I'm a serious jazz guitarist myself and I would LOVE to be his friend for what I could learn from him. I'm great at setting up guitars and would loveto be his guitar tech for what I could learn while keeping his axe in tip top. I've seen Pat play a 3 Hr set and look like he could go for another 3. At one show at 11PM the crowd spontaneously erupted into a huge standing O, then Pat left the stage and came back to do his encore. It was a Wednesday night and I think people had to go to work the next day so at 11PM the crowd bowed out, not Pat, LOL. i was upset though because I had already arranged to have the next day off Originally Posted by sully75
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During my time in DC I heard Metheny three times: with PMG, the trio, and with Mehldau.
While I have my likes and less-likes that was a ton of great music.
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Suffering for your art is one thing, making your family suffer for it is another. Wes, like everyone else, had to feed his family, buy new shoes and school clothes, etc etc. I cannot criticize him for that, in any way. Millions of people have done much worse things to feed their families. I have.
As for Metheny, I cannot listen to him. I've tried, and I can't. Perhaps that's a character flaw, but my tastes are what they are. Life is too short to spend time listening to music I don't like.
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One more thought on Wes and commercial releases, like Miles the background may change but the “horn” still comes through.
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