Free Jazz - Bad Career Choice?

[fumblefingers]

haha. there you go! free improv yes, free jazz improv? mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm idunno

[amusiathread]

Haha, I dunno, Gumbo. I never really developed the ear for "prepared" instruments, or tables of trinkets (did you make it that far into the video? 3:04, It's amazing!). Even some of Derek Bailey's stuff strikes me as too far out (for my taste). I love Bailey when his mechanical technique is a bit more...conventional, I guess.

I will watch the video you shared, though. While I don't see eye-to-eye with Kenny on some things, I've found some of his ideas to be very insightful.

[cosmic gumbo]

I know this much...if someone tells me how to define free jazz, then it isn't free jazz anymore. It is outside the realm of jazz police jurisdiction. Anything contrary to that is just a matter of taste or opinion.

[fumblefingers]

so this is jazz then?

[cosmic gumbo]

so this is jazz then?

Halifax Free Improv Group? Nah, I posted that video as a joke, but what if they decided they wanted call it free jazz? Could they? What is the criteria?

[eddy b.]

Hey Amusiathread I just want to encourage you to do your thing.I'm pretty sure that you can create some type of environment to make this kind of music. I live in New Orleans where this type of improvisational music has a limited audience blah blah balh so my buddy convinced a club owner to give him an off night (tuesday) found a bartender that digs the freaky sounds and has been putting on a concert series every Tuesday night for 7 years now it's called "Open Ears". There isn't much bread being made 20 to 50 bucks except for when a hevy weight in the genre Idris Muhammad, Ken Vandermark etc. The thing maybe for you to realize is that there are a lot of people(not a large percentage) into this music. the young hipsters,bohemians,music heads,phish fans etc. all are open to new musical experiences.You might be surprised at the healthy scene for this music. check out Cadence Magazine and websearch "improvised music". You also might want to check out Bill Frisell...when he was in New York he made some pretty free freaky cds for the ecm label...groups called bass desires, powertools,john zorn etc. Any how enjoy the new path and follow it as long as it brings you joy.

[henryrobinett]

I know this much...if someone tells me how to define free jazz, then it isn't free jazz anymore. It is outside the realm of jazz police jurisdiction. Anything contrary to that is just a matter of taste or opinion.

Well yeah, maybe. The handful of great free players I've played with often had certain guidelines. Sometimes no more than listening or dynamic rules. We did a season of Ornette Coleman's music. There are a lot of "rules" - well a lot more than you might guess. His early music has no meter and no key, but that downs' mean it's a free for all. All of it is there as it's being implied, but it's open to be moved and shaped. And he has rules about equalizing all thing Melody, harmony and rhythm. Harmolodic.

But yeah Gumbo - I get what you mean.

[paynow]

Starting at about 37:15, Kenny comments on the monetary aspect.

[jster]

I keep imagining a mother asking her son, "So Johnny, how was your meeting with the guidance counselor?" "I don't know. He told me that engineering wasn't for everybody and maybe I should consider free-jazz."

[docbop]

Well yeah, maybe. The handful of great free players I've played with often had certain guidelines. Sometimes no more than listening or dynamic rules. We did a season of Ornette Coleman's music. There are a lot of "rules" - well a lot more than you might guess. His early music has no meter and no key, but that downs' mean it's a free for all. All of it is there as it's being implied, but it's open to be moved and shaped. And he has rules about equalizing all thing Melody, harmony and rhythm. Harmolodic.

But yeah Gumbo - I get what you mean.

I've been listening to some Art Ensemble of Chicago and surprised they aren't considered Free Jazz, just Avante Garde. I guess having intros, improv sections, and endings is too organized to be Free.

[jster]

I have been told that the ICP Orchestra is the most important free-jazz ensemble in Europe. The go back back to the 60's. I asked about them before here and nobody had anything to say about them. They have a lot of stuff that is written out. But not all of it. I saw them once and thought they were great.

[cosmic gumbo]

Well yeah, maybe. The handful of great free players I've played with often had certain guidelines. Sometimes no more than listening or dynamic rules. We did a season of Ornette Coleman's music. There are a lot of "rules" - well a lot more than you might guess. His early music has no meter and no key, but that downs' mean it's a free for all. All of it is there as it's being implied, but it's open to be moved and shaped. And he has rules about equalizing all thing Melody, harmony and rhythm. Harmolodic.

But yeah Gumbo - I get what you mean.

After playing and listening to free jazz for 30 years, you are preaching to the choir. I know that most of it is created using some type of concept. My point is that Ornette defined his own concepts, not someone else, and we are free to define our own.

[fumblefingers]

Halifax Free Improv Group? Nah, I posted that video as a joke, but what if they decided they wanted call it free jazz? Could they? What is the criteria?

that's a very good question my friend. i was actually thinking about this today for a fleeting moment.

the only thing that i could come up with is this.

it should in some way resemble one or more of the following:

Blues
New Orleans
Swing
Be Bop
Hard Bop
Cool
Post Bop
Fusion (Jazz/Rock)
Free Jazz (oops, i stepped in it there)
Smooth (Pop/Jazz or Disco/Jazz or R&B/Jazz)


if not, then it's just improvised music.

[Stevebol]

Jam bands=democracy+anarchy. No leaders, but there are definitely rules. I don't see how free-jazz could be any different. Musically they are completely different.

[Stevebol]

I play free-jazz. I've never played jazz and only tried it once in workshop. Never again.

[JakeAcci]

I'm at a stage where I'd rather play music that I believed in even if other people think of it as abhorrent. It's just me maybe, but I don't expect money to come from playing straight ahead or "modern" jazz anyway, at least not as a guitarist.

[Stevebol]

I can't express myself playing jazz because the energy and interaction between instruments isn't there for me. I don't do free-jazz because I see it as existential expession. I don't believe in existentialism, period. I see improvization as chaos. A potentially good form of anarchy. Anarchy can't exist without democracy. A free-jazz band has to create it's own language of communication that only applies to the musicians involved and the situation at hand. Everything is decided democratically and there is no leader but there is likely to be someone who is the creative spark and they contribute a great deal.

Music has to be broken down into different elements that can be understood by everyone. Each song may have a different set of rules that apply to it. A jam band removes the common element to all music- melody, and music is reduced to chords and rhythm. The solos become the melody and there are no time constraints. In free-jazz all structure is removed. What's left is chaos and it's controlled by boundaries. The boundries can be determined anywhere.


This is only my contribution to explaining free-jazz. Other explanations are equally valid. The important thing is to not sit around and yap about this too much. Come up with a plan and get to it.

One final thing, if you play guitar NO CHORDS. In a free-jazz context chords are fascist. Sort of like concertos and home runs in baseball.

[cosmic gumbo]

Like they say, the best things in life are free...like free jazz and free beer.

[Rick5]

Thanks for the insights and opinions, I appreciate your words.
Luckily, I do have a pretty good job, so I'm not too worried about putting food on the table. I do care about sharing music, getting out and getting heard by people, and while I've never had any reservations about being on the fringe (jazz, for instance), it's being on the fringe of the fringe (free-jazz), that has me feeling a bit apprehensive.

Once during a Skype lesson with Jack Grassel, I brought up that I feel a little down sometimes about having a job. He dismissed that concern pretty quickly and said that the main advantage of having a job is that you "get to play only the music that you want to play." That comment has really stuck with me. Go for it!

[docbop]

Once during a Skype lesson with Jack Grassel, I brought up that I feel a little down sometimes about having a job. He dismissed that concern pretty quickly and said that the main advantage of having a job is that you "get to play only the music that you want to play." That comment has really stuck with me. Go for it!

Russ Tuttle a name that's popped up a few times here lately used to same thing. Russ would say some of the best soloists he's heard were hobbyists because when you don't need to make a living with music you can play anything without worrying who you please.

[Stevebol]

Wut?

Just my opinion. Horns can't play chords. It's too easy for guitarists to overshadow other instruments if they're going to be bashing out chords. I'd rather listen to free-jazz without guitars.
I haven't seen any guitarists who do this music yet who make it seem real. The Bill Laswell/Sonny Sharrock stuff seems fake. All I can say about Derek Bailey is, I don't buy it for a minute.

I'ts just a way to weed out the fakes Jake. 2 notes together doesn't make a chord and you could do quite a bit with 2 notes. I would go with an octave pedal too.

[cosmic gumbo]

A few of today's big guns.

[Stevebol]

I like Vandermark 5 because of the cello. The deep sustained notes really added something.

[rjenkins]

I'd like to resurrect this thread to mention that Joe Morris is, aside from being a tremendously talented and dedicated improvising musician, the author of a very useful book that explains very clearly what free music is at this particular point in history.(http://www.amazon.com/Perpetual-Fron.../dp/0985981008).

[Rob MacKillop]

Is there a difference between free jazz and free music? You mention your classical background - lots of free stuff there too. If you want to do it, you need to be committed - which is a good thing, as all good music demands commitment. Go for it, man, you only live once :-)