question regarding sax/guitar duo

[alltunes]

I like the sax playing guide tones idea.

Looper used here and there could be very effective. I find the EH 720 to have some useful features for live performance. i.e. fade-out

Here is something I don’t think has been mentioned here before…A plug in foot percussion pedal…you can set it to a dull thud almost like an ambiguous bass note/kick drum to lay down time to accompany yourself. Link works and there are most likely other brands besides this one:

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Also the latest version of the Boss Octave pedal lets you split the range so only notes on your 6th and 5th string (below 7th fret) will sound an octave below. If used subtly could fatten up your bass notes even chordal playing.

Here is a BG lesson on the subject….might be worth the 19 clams

Self Comping - Topic Driven - Barry Greene Video Lessons

I’m sure we all be interested in what you come up with because to a lessor degree accompanying a singer poses similar issues.

[Jimmy blue note]

I always feel the bottom drop out. It's an inevitable fact, but how you make that transition, and what you hear (an idea or a panic absence of sound), that's totally up to YOU. One thing that I've found game changing is USING the sax player (or vocalist, or whomever... even the ambient sounds available in the room) to form a call/response that gives your solo a structure to play off of.
When I'm comping and I hear myself as supportive, yeah the transition to solo (OMG where do I start?) feels like a void, but if the soloist leaves me with some kind of melodic idea... a motiv or even some rhythmic shape, I can use that, repeat it, build off of it and make the solo a continuation of the solo flow.
Maybe if you guys can rehearse or even discuss, try incorporating more instrument to instrument dialogue: Listen to each other and have segments where you both work with exchanging juxtaposing ideas (Lennie Tristano instilled this in his sidemen) so ideas can flow BETWEEN and not on top of one another.
I was listening to Fred Hersch/Mick Goodrick's new release and it, and Jim Hall's Bill Evans duos and though they're both potentially heavy harmonic instruments, they purposely control the weight of their playing so they're always on even footing.
Think of this as a constant dialogue and control your own fuel mixture when you're comping so the attention goes to the ideas being conveyed and the role of space is a part of that.
It's an attitude shift from the oft accepted role of solo/comp into two equal conversants.
And it's a lot of fun playing this way.

[spencer096]

Lot of great advice here, esp developing more dialog between us. Thanks to everyone.

I’ll def chime back in after our next one…I’m going to lean on my intros/outros, try taking first solo and get him to do some melodic accompaniment and see if that keeps things where I want em when his is over.

[grahambop]

Another sax/guitar duo record:

ed: whoops, I see someone already posted it. On this track there’s a bit of accompaniment from Scott during Bucky’s solo (not much, but gives an idea of what you could do).

[spencer096]

Jesus Bucky sounds f-ing awesome

[grahambop]

Here’s the Zoot Sims/Bucky Pizzarelli album that has been mentioned:

[mayrandp]

Some listening examples:

• Gary Bartz & Peter Leitch — The Montreal Concert
• Mathieu Soucy & Jeremy Sandfelder — An Afternoon in NDG
• Various Braxton Cook / Andrew Renfroe duo videos on YouTube
• Ed Bickert & Rob McConnell (guitar / valve trombone duo) — Mutual Street

Also not a sax/guitar duo, but worth checking out for the use of a looper:

Jon Gearey & Louise Thibault — How Deep Is the Ocean

[GuyBoden]

Bucky Pizzarelli and Zoot Sims often operated as a duo, and later Bucky and Scott Hamilton did a tribute to those gigs--The Red Door--that has some examples of Bucky's chord soloing. There's one about five minutes into this track:

It probably helps to be playing a seven-string on this kind of comping and soloing , but I'm not hearing that low string on that track.

There's also a near-complete album of Bucky and Zoot on YouTube. Really really nice playing.

Another sax/guitar duo record:

ed: whoops, I see someone already posted it. On this track there’s a bit of accompaniment from Scott during Bucky’s solo (not much, but gives an idea of what you could do).

Yes, my fav Sax+Guitar song on the album. (I've had the album a long time.)

'It Had to Be You'

[ragman1]

Great guitarist, old Bucky. Not easy to solo solo, as it were.

[Christian Miller]

I use an octave pedal and a looper in such situations. Then solo over my comping. If you do it every other song it can really spice up a gig

After playing around with it on a few gigs I think I’ve realised I don’t really like doing that. Partly I find the looping side of it widely stressful but it also feels a bit strange to be going off into your own layered world with another player there.

Otoh I think I wouldn’t mind it if it was on a solo gig.


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[GuyBoden]

Otoh I think I wouldn’t mind it if it was on a solo gig.

I played solo with a looper live quite a few times about 15+ years go.

Hitting the looper pedal buttons accurately became too stressful after a few live miss hits, so I prerecorded my own pedal loops in the memory, it worked better.

[ragman1]

You definitely don't want too many mishits

[Christian Miller]

I played solo with a looper live quite a few times about 15+ years go.

Hitting the looper pedal buttons accurately became too stressful after a few live mishits, so I prerecorded my own pedal loops in the memory, it worked better.

At that point it feels like you may as well fire up a backing track

I do quite like the looper for layering drone textures


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[Christian Miller]

not sure where this belonged, figured this was the best place...

ive been doing duo gigs with a sax player...they've been going great, great chemistry, when im comping for him it's legit killing, but...

...when i go to solo, it feels like the bottom completely drops out. any ideas how to get thru this?

i do a ton of solo gigs, and don't lack in that department...but it just feels so deflating when that roaring sax and deep groove with the guitar is gone. last gig we did, instead of even trying to solo, i just did a chours of what i called "comping+" and it was aight. but still not really happy with that elevator shaft it feels like i fall into.

I’ve been doing this for a while and what I’ve settled on is a sort of mixed style where I play chords and solo. You can punctuate your solo lines or play call and response with yourself.

You can play 2 or 4 bars of soloing and then 2 and 4 bars of chords and alternate. Then try an irregular number like 3 or 5 which is challenge.

The really important thing about this type of playing is to keep the time going throughout the solo. It’s a work in progress, but if you can get used to practicing on your own as much as possible and locking in with a metronome on various beats and offbeats that’s the way to practice it.

The most useful comping a horn player can do imo is to tap 2 and 4 on the sax keys haha. Super helpful!

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[Christian Miller]

Here’s my sort of gold standard of how to do this.

The audio recording is bad - people talking really loudly lol. But it is good to hear how Lage does on a standards duo gig.

One thing he does a lot is end a phrase on a single note and then put a chord behind it.

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[spencer096]

the lage lund video is pretty preposterous. what a monster player.

at like 2:50 the way he bridges the solos hits on what youre talking about with time...and where i think im lagging in this duo. he matches the time and intensity of the sax player before falling back into single line stuff...there's no awkwardness in that transition, no dropoff, and then he's got full control. i think i gotta do some focus on that mesh point and ill be in better shape.

also, im watching this vid...i dont lack in the chops department at all...but still im over here like "jesus christ i gotta get to work."

[Christian Miller]

the lage lund video is pretty preposterous. what a monster player.

at like 2:50 the way he bridges the solos hits on what youre talking about with time...and where i think im lagging in this duo. he matches the time and intensity of the sax player before falling back into single line stuff...there's no awkwardness in that transition, no dropoff, and then he's got full control. i think i gotta do some focus on that mesh point and ill be in better shape.

also, im watching this vid...i dont lack in the chops department at all...but still im over here like "jesus christ i gotta get to work."

Haha, yeah. Perhaps like looking at Mount Everest, but it's useful to have a model.

And FWIW, this is where I'm at with it.
Stream Duo solo copy by Christianm77 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

[pamosmusic]

Here’s my sort of gold standard of how to do this.

The audio recording is bad - people talking really loudly lol. But it is good to hear how Lage does on a standards duo gig.

One thing he does a lot is end a phrase on a single note and then put a chord behind it.

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Man their stuff was so good. The OWL trio stuff too.

[spencer096]

that handoff arpeggio was so nice and once you got going, you used a ton of single note lines without that drop off.

[Christian Miller]

that handoff arpeggio was so nice and once you got going, you used a ton of single note lines without that drop off.

Thanks man, something I’ve worked very hard at - it comes and goes.

One thing that’s hard is when things don’t go quite as expected for whatever reason - recovering without losing the beat.


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[alltunes]

Haha, yeah. Perhaps like looking at Mount Everest, but it's useful to have a model.

And FWIW, this is where I'm at with it.
Stream Duo solo copy by Christianm77 | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

That sounds great but at one point it sounds like someone is keeping time on a high hat? or something?

I think Davy Mooney does a great job of filling things out:

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I play a lot of gigs backing vocalists by myself, and the same issue applies. My approach has always been to keep the momentum going with a combination of bass line and "barely there" shell comping. The lead line is secondary to this. If you can't play long solo lines over at least some bass and / or one or two well placed simple chords per bar, make your solos a series of well crafted phrases with bass notes or chords between them. Rhythmic integration gives the listener the sense of a continuous bass line even when it's actually interspersed with shell chords and lead notes. You can also use simple chord melody with rootless, voice leading bass, especially first and second inversions. You can do it all just with a pick, but I think that hybrid or fingerstyle makes it easier.

I've always done this, first on 6 strings for about 35 years. I switched to 7 in the early '90s because I love the way it sounds and feels. But you can do it just as easily and almost as effectively on a 6. The low A is simply an octave below your 5th string, so you can play the same notes on either A with great effect. I hope the following is helpful:

Listen to Joe Pass with Zoot Sims for inspiration - I love this album!

ballads (solo at 3:13 is very nice)

Pete Smyser solos at 1:20 on this one (7 string American Archtop - great guitar!):

Here are two of mine. I take my solo at 2:10 on this one.

and here's another style (solo at 1:28):

[Alter]

This is also nice if you haven't seen it. They have many other excellent live videos as well.