Tension vs relaxation on the bandstand

[rpjazzguitar]

This topic has been on my mind lately.

One band I play in has evolved to the point where we're looking for more challenging material to play during rehearsals and, at the urging of one player, bringing these tunes to the gigs without having played them very much at all.

Doing increasingly challenging material is good, in its way, for the longevity of the group. Musicians like to be challenged.

But, on the bandstand, our faces are buried in the charts and I think the performances can be overly tense. We can get through a complicated, energetic piece with a dramatic ending and hear very little applause, even when we're congratulating ourselves.

Then, on the other hand, one of us plays with a well-known, excellent player (different band) who flatly refuses to play anything difficult on a gig.

And, another version of our band, one without the player who is driving the difficulty-train, plays easier material, is more relaxed, banters between tunes - including with the audience - and gets a good response and double or triple the tips, most nights. And, that's still with reading on most of the tunes.

A related issue may be how the band is amplified. I like the vocals to be way out front. But it can be a struggle to get the instrumentalists to quiet down enough.

Thoughts? Jazz purist vs entertainer? Is that even an issue?

[pcjazz]

Thoughts? Jazz purist vs entertainer? Is that even an issue?

Not if you want those tips.

The obvious answer is to rehearse the challenging pieces to the point that they are not such a challenge by the time you gig them.

[Alter]

For me it depends on the occasion and type of gig. If it is a concert and people have come to listen to the band playing you play your stuff and more "difficult" material. If it is just playing music for a random audience you work with the crowd. And these two type of gigs often blend into each other.

But for jazz, i never found playing easy and well known tunes boring or uninteresting. The sky is the limit with what you can do with the music no matter what tunes you play.

[rpjazzguitar]

But for jazz, i never found playing easy and well known tunes boring or uninteresting. The sky is the limit with what you can do with the music no matter what tunes you play.

Well said! I think that's exactly right.

[Cunamara]

Another question is whether those challenging tunes are actually good from the audience perspective. There's a lot of music out there that is not really written with an audience in mind; I suppose that's music that's considered to be "art" instead of "commercial." If you're playing music which the audience doesn't like or respond to, I'm not sure how much a difference it's going to make for that to be well-rehearsed or not.

On the other hand, Bill Frisell sells out or nearly sells out every gig he plays here and often that is very challenging stuff. Maybe that's just the segment of the market he pulls. One of the best things I have heard him do live was with pipe organist Kit Downes, which did not sell out the theater. A shame, it was a wonderful night of music. Or maybe the audience is like me: there's a lot of Bill's stuff I don't particularly "like" and yet I go hear him at nearly every opportunity because there just isn't anyone else like him. Ditto Julian Lage.

[AllanAllen]

Difficult music is rarely as pleasing as easy music. It’s why regular people want to hear you play Ipanema instead of Giant Steps and why Kind of Blue is more popular than A Love Supreme.

Sounds like you have a more harder is more better musician in the group.

[starjasmine]

To paraphrase Cunamara, you have to decide whether you are playing for the audience or for yourselves. Part of that is expectation; the audience for a Bill Frisell gig is not expecting the same thing as the audience for a social dance.

My $0.02 is that you can play whatever you want in rehearsal, but if you are playing to an audience, you should play FOR the audience.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think part of it is how well the band plays. It's hard to play instrumental jazz well enough to hold an audience. It's easier to be entertaining with simpler material and singing.

So, it comes down to what you want to do. Focusing on playing jazz as well as you can is a reasonable goal. Focusing on entertaining an audience can overlap, but isn't necessarily the same thing.

I've found that the more gratifying gigs are the ones with greater audience engagement. But, different players are going to see that differently.

[Christian Miller]

Another question is whether those challenging tunes are actually good from the audience perspective. There's a lot of music out there that is not really written with an audience in mind; I suppose that's music that's considered to be "art" instead of "commercial." If you're playing music which the audience doesn't like or respond to, I'm not sure how much a difference it's going to make for that to be well-rehearsed or not.

On the other hand, Bill Frisell sells out or nearly sells out every gig he plays here and often that is very challenging stuff. Maybe that's just the segment of the market he pulls. One of the best things I have heard him do live was with pipe organist Kit Downes, which did not sell out the theater. A shame, it was a wonderful night of music. Or maybe the audience is like me: there's a lot of Bill's stuff I don't particularly "like" and yet I go hear him at nearly every opportunity because there just isn't anyone else like him. Ditto Julian Lage.

Bill has generally threaded a line between music that is interesting artistically and highly accessible to non jazz nerds - while at the same time remaining highly respected in the jazz community.

He makes it look easy, but I suspect this is a difficult trick….


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Christian Miller]

This topic has been on my mind lately.

One band I play in has evolved to the point where we're looking for more challenging material to play during rehearsals and, at the urging of one player, bringing these tunes to the gigs without having played them very much at all.

Doing increasingly challenging material is good, in its way, for the longevity of the group. Musicians like to be challenged.

But, on the bandstand, our faces are buried in the charts and I think the performances can be overly tense. We can get through a complicated, energetic piece with a dramatic ending and hear very little applause, even when we're congratulating ourselves.

Then, on the other hand, one of us plays with a well-known, excellent player (different band) who flatly refuses to play anything difficult on a gig.

And, another version of our band, one without the player who is driving the difficulty-train, plays easier material, is more relaxed, banters between tunes - including with the audience - and gets a good response and double or triple the tips, most nights. And, that's still with reading on most of the tunes.

A related issue may be how the band is amplified. I like the vocals to be way out front. But it can be a struggle to get the instrumentalists to quiet down enough.

Thoughts? Jazz purist vs entertainer? Is that even an issue?

You have to find an overlap in the Venn diagram between ‘stuff you like to play and find fulfilling’ and ‘stuff an audience will pay to come and hear’

Having done a good old mix of gigs over the years I would say that accessibility is context dependant. You don’t want a vibey traditional jazz band for a background restaurant gig. There’s an element of reading the room for gigs

OTOH accessible music at a jazz club might have a different meaning.

These days things go by niche. I’ve found that some of my originals projects resonate with wider audiences in unexpected ways. There’s kind of no way of knowing.

So to me the solution to this is not to second guess what the audience wants necessarily, but to do something you enjoy and see if it connects.

Lastly, vocals make music vastly easier to relate to for most people.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[James W]

Difficult music is rarely as pleasing as easy music. It’s why regular people want to hear you play Ipanema instead of Giant Steps and why Kind of Blue is more popular than A Love Supreme.

Sounds like you have a more harder is more better musician in the group.

I would question why we ought to privilege what pleases 'regular' people over what non-regular people want.

And what's more popular doesn't therefore make it better. Anyone pursuing jazz to be popular is a bit silly anyway.

[AllanAllen]

I would question why we ought to privilege what pleases 'regular' people over what non-regular people want.

And what's more popular doesn't therefore make it better. Anyone pursuing jazz to be popular is a bit silly anyway.

Yes, but if you get hired at a pizza place and clear the room with free jazz, you’re done.

One must accept that by performing in public, art turns into a product. Also, as performance artists, we ourselves are part of the product, which is why I dress up and try to be approachable.

[Blue J]

Hello. The band with the member who wants to play challenging material,cold, from the top sounds like he/she wants what is known as a “rehearsal” band and not really a “show” band. As an audience member the listening experience will not be optimal. Very few people want to listen to a band playing unrehearsed music.

My experience with music as a player and listener is that if the music doesn’t get head’s bobbing and feet tapping then the performance is not reaching the audience. You have to “feel” the music you are playing if you hope for the audience to “feel” it also.

So, short answer: keep rehearsals at the rehearsal space. Know your audience. Play what you know and like. Don’t over think or try to complicate the music. If you are feeling it, chances are good the audience is feeling it too. YMMV.

[James W]

Yes, but if you get hired at a pizza place and clear the room with free jazz, you’re done.

One must accept that by performing in public, art turns into a product. Also, as performance artists, we ourselves are part of the product, which is why I dress up and try to be approachable.

Sure. I guess a pizza place would want some unobtrusive background stuff. Which would not hit the spot if you are doing a free jazz gig.

[Christian Miller]

I would question why we ought to privilege what pleases 'regular' people over what non-regular people want.

Yeah, I don't think it's necessary. If you can find and appeal to groups of non-regular people and get them invested in what you are doing you can keep a career going. That's the trick of it really.

If we wanted to appeal to regular people we probably wouldn't play jazz at all haha.

[pamosmusic]

I also just really think you can make a boring musical situation for yourself by underestimating what people have the culture to listen to live.

We talk like playing sophisticated fancy jazz is snooty or whatever and don’t really seem to notice that acting like an audience can’t appreciate it is pretty snooty and patronizing too.

I think do what you do, present it well, allow yourself to seem like you enjoy it, be ready for it to not be the right fit at every single spot.

[pamosmusic]

I think where most fancy jazz musicians go wrong is acting like they’re working

[Christian Miller]

I also just really think you can make a boring musical situation for yourself by underestimating what people have the culture to listen to live.

We talk like playing sophisticated fancy jazz is snooty or whatever and don’t really seem to notice that acting like an audience can’t appreciate it is pretty snooty and patronizing too.

I think do what you do, present it well, allow yourself to seem like you enjoy it, be ready for it to not be the right fit at every single spot.

They totally pick up on the vibe of the players

I really like playing some nice standards for diners. It beats working for a living, and they are great songs.

I also like playing originals at a jazz club. It's all cool.

And there's no by-law saying you can't play originals on a background gig and so on...

Sometimes you get a slightly out of place request for Taylor Swift or whatever, and it can be a bit annoying if you've been playing straightahead jazz, but I always think it would be really cool to come back with a hip arrangement of one of her tunes. Needs a little more effort, but it's worth doing.

[Christian Miller]

I think where most fancy jazz musicians go wrong is acting like they’re working

It's easy to see why

Personally I'm past that now, it's a joy and pleasure (mostly) to play music for people.

Probably I was never fancy enough, but I certainly used to think I was haha.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think where most fancy jazz musicians go wrong is acting like they’re working

I started working for the top society band & orchestra office in our region when I was 23. There were 14 leaders (of whom 5 were the owners of the business), plus about 200 sidemen on the roster. Many of them were top pros who played for big names like Basie, Chicago, etc. Each leader had a regular crew. I played for a great guy named Lou King most of the time as one of a core of tenor, trumpet, guitar, bass & drums.

Louie played amplified accordion (!) and really knew how to make music with it. He’d led army bands and was a great musician and entertainer. Most of our gigs were 6 to 9 players, with the add-ons brought in from the roster of rotating greats. When we needed a piano, we usually used Lou Del Negro, who was Anna Moffo’s regular accompanist for some years. Vince Montana played vibes. It was an ongoing education from some real masters.

When they were off the road, they played weddings, bar mitzvahs, and assorted (or sordid, depending on your point of view) commercial dates with the likes of me. So I honed my chops playing some pretty boring music for some pretty unappreciative people with guys like Tyrone Brown and Al Grey.

What I learned from the best musicians with whom I have ever played is that you need to approach every tune the same way. Whether you love it or hate it, make it musical and play it as well as possible. Make it swing, make it cry, make it jump - but make it the best it can be. It’s a real challenge at times, but it’ll make you a better player.

The bass player in my current trio (with whom I’ve been playing for a few decades) teaches his students to “keep honing your craft for life”. That’s great advice that I try to remember when I have to play songs I hate. It ain’t what you play, it’s how you play it.

[pamosmusic]

I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me, but either way I think we agree.

I didn't mean that musicians' problem is that they act like they're working ... because it should be all fun and games and chill.

A better analogy --

I worked for The Jazz Standard, which was downstairs of a restaurant and owned by the restaurant group the restaurant was a part of. So the ethos there was way more of an Upscale Restaurant ethos than a Jazz Club thing.

So there were lots and lots of steps of service that were adhered to in certain situations. I was allowed to not tuck my shirt in when I ran the door at the club, but the procedures and the way they dealt with people was the same.

Anyway ...

Managers were very explicit about front of house folks not using terms of art with the guests. Like you don't refer to the table by the table number or a procedure by its acronym or a party as a "top," or whatever. It took a lot of practice and a lot of effort to make the experience pleasant and seamless for them, but they didn't care or need to see all that stuff and would kind of make the experience weird for them if they did. And it was also a fun job, so the idea was to make the fun part visible and try to make the work invisible.

Everyone went through a phase where they were starting to get the job down and liked to sort of broadcast a little bit that they knew what they were doing and knew all the terms and how it all worked. But most folks kind of get past that and realize that the illusion of seamlessness is part of the job.

The managers literally called it "swanning" .... paddling furiously beneath the surface, graceful gliding on top. Obnoxious, yes, but an instructive image.

So the music thing is similar in a lot of ways. Treat your craft seriously, but don't labor under the delusion that the audience wants to see you working. They want to see you playing music -- like, literally playing. So you have to hide the work parts and act like what you're doing is fun.

Fortunately, it usually is.

[Heybopper]

well what ive learnt so far is to video each gig. Just put your phone somewhere out of the way so it's not seen by the audience and then watch it when you get home.
It's a bit like when you used to record yourself way back. You will see what's working and what isn't and what needs to be improved.
I think progressing is important and you should keep pushing yourselves but remember that the audience is the most important thing.

[ragman1]

This topic has been on my mind lately.

One band I play in has evolved to the point where we're looking for more challenging material to play during rehearsals and, at the urging of one player, bringing these tunes to the gigs without having played them very much at all.

Doing increasingly challenging material is good, in its way, for the longevity of the group. Musicians like to be challenged.

But, on the bandstand, our faces are buried in the charts and I think the performances can be overly tense. We can get through a complicated, energetic piece with a dramatic ending and hear very little applause, even when we're congratulating ourselves.

Then, on the other hand, one of us plays with a well-known, excellent player (different band) who flatly refuses to play anything difficult on a gig.

And, another version of our band, one without the player who is driving the difficulty-train, plays easier material, is more relaxed, banters between tunes - including with the audience - and gets a good response and double or triple the tips, most nights. And, that's still with reading on most of the tunes.

A related issue may be how the band is amplified. I like the vocals to be way out front. But it can be a struggle to get the instrumentalists to quiet down enough.

Thoughts? Jazz purist vs entertainer? Is that even an issue?

All the answers you want are in your post.