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This has come up on different tunes, but here's a recent case.
The tune (samba, quarter note = 120 in 2/4), which is new to the group, ends with 12 bars of Bm11. Bars 1, 5, 9 have a quick snippet of melody. In bar 10, a solo begins.
After the 12 bars, there's a 4 bar open solo section, also on Bm11. So the band plays that an unspecified number of times. The leader cues it and then there's a one bar tag with another quick melodic phrase. Then it's over. Fin.
The cue to go to the very last bar is given by the pianist. He always knows where he is in the repeated four bar phrase - even though the underlying rhythmic pattern is two bars long (samba). And, he says the cue can be given anywhere in the four bar phrase and everybody should then know not to repeat again, but to go to the last bar. He usually gives it nearer the beginning of the four bar phrase
But, some of us (I won't name names) don't always know where we are in the four bar repeated phase. Especially when the only chord for some lengthy period of time is Bm11. You might expect to hear a cue in the drums, but his name is one, along with mine, I didn't name.
One of my teachers always cued in the last repetition of the two bar rhythmic chop. "GO!". Where you are in the two bar samba rhythm is unmistakable so this, to me, is unambiguous and therefore better.
I don't get why the right way wouldn't be the way which is less likely to result in an error.
Thoughts? How do you do it? What do you expect others to do?
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12-22-2024 08:56 PM
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There’s what should happen and what does happen. Watch the Lincoln Center Jazz band, they’re signaling each other all over the place. Find what works for the band and do that.And, he says the cue can be given anywhere in the four bar phrase and everybody should then know not to repeat again, but to go to the last bar. He usually gives it nearer the beginning of the four bar phrase
Like you said in the other thread, you don’t want to be the only guy who is right.
A band is a team, everyone should work together to sound good together.
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In my big band, the bassist counts off some of the tunes. He does the one sentence explanation of how he's going to count it and then counts it. Works great, although he did once have a problem with a completely unfamiliar chart in cut time.
One of the trumpet players won't even say "4". For him, the count is 1 2 3, a silent 4, and the tune starts. So he's counting one bar and in. And, he's an old guy who has been playing big band for many decades and taught it.
So, I'm wondering if there's a standard that people expect. And, if that standard, when I find out what it is, will strike me as the best way it can be done.
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Starting a song by extended snapping of fingers is the worst - are they snapping the up beats or the down beats, do they switch for different songs? I can't imagine needing two measures of counting in.
Pat Metheny says that the drummer is the leader in all Jazz bands. Part of what that means is that the drummer "owns the form" - is responsible for heralding the transitions from part to part.
An example is an AABA song form; the A part has two endings, the first time you repeat, the second you go on into the B section. The drummer should have two distinctive ways of playing the end of the A section that either sound like they are saying "repeat" or "on to next section". I call this signally vocabulary the talking drum.
Signals that are embedded into the sound of the song like this are not overlooked the way visual signals may be if someone isn't watching, because we are always listening.
I don't trust piano players; virtually all of them learned by playing music where the piano is all the music and all the music is just the piano... they have to break some habits to play with others and may the worst choice for signalling things.
The drummer is the naturally best choice for signalling because it is easier to recognize - no harmonic or melodic aspect, just distinctive drum sounds.
Yes, all this assumes that these are "in the last bar" signals at just the time when things need to be confirmed, no ambiguity from being too early.
That four bars which are really a pair of two bars is a problem with early signalling for sure. People are going to try methods to keep track (two bars left foot patting, two bars right foot patting
), but what happens if the pianist losses track?
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He blames the guitar player.but what happens if the pianist losses track?
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If everybody correctly keeps track of where you are in the four bar repeated section, having been playing the same chord for quite a while, with a 2 bar rhythmic pattern -- then cuing it near the beginning of the four bar section makes sense.
But, is it reasonable to take a chance that the cue will be missed just because you insist that everybody should be able to keep track of the four bar phrase? And, when there's an obvious alternative -- that is, to cue in the first bar of the 2 bar rhythmic phrase, play the second bar and then move on to the tag.
How would you do it?
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Schemes expecting everyone to manage in isolation?
Schemes with song dependent folk cuing the others?
Schemes that rely on visual rather than musical cue?
No; the drummer's "talking drums" heralds a change;
everyone is listening, confirming position in the form.
Coherent coincidences require singular cue sources.
Cues sounded as music are superior to visual signal.
Most natural easiest to detect are the drum's sound.
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In a long section of Bm11 to be cued -- if you give that task to the drummer, the drummer's non-verbal cue must be entirely unambiguous. Not just to the usual band members, but also to any sub who is sitting in, reading the chart.
Originally Posted by pauln
My view, which one of my bandmates (who is a traditionally educated musician, which I am not) argues against, is that it should be cued in the last two bars of the repeated section, verbally, by saying something as simple as "GO!". He seems to think that this is amateurish, but it seems to me that user-friendly, simple and unambiguous is a hard combo to beat.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I've played with the trio for so long I didn't
think subs; drummer has a "talking drum".
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I have also had the thought that it would be good if the chart included a notation for exactly where the cue should be given. Why not have a special symbol for it?
Then, whenever the leader cues, everybody knows exactly where they are in the chart. I guess it would have to be understood that even if you think the band is somewhere else when you hear the cue, you immediately are at the point in the chart where the cue is notated.
I’ve mentioned that a few times in rehearsals and nobody likes the idea.
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