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The tune is Jogral, which you can find in the Latin Real Book.
It's written in cut time. It starts with a pickup bar which contains an 8th rest and then seven 8th notes.
Chatgpt says cut-time-with-pickup is counted 1 - 2 and then you're in. I think this may be an extension of the notion that all count-ins are two bars, including the pickup.
But, that's not a lot of syllables to internalize the tempo. So, some band leaders will snap their fingers for a few bars and then do the count.
Based on some experiences in my big band, not all the musicians expect the same thing for the count-in.
My idea, if I were counting it in would be first to say "It's 1 2 3 4 ta da da ta da da da" (singing the melody of the pickup in those 7 syllables). Then count it in like I just explained. To me this is a good solution because it's unambiguous. But, I've gotten a complaint from a music-degreed player who claims it's unnecessary and wrong.
One bit of advice that this reminds me about is "you don't want to be the only player in the band who's right".
Thoughts?Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-22-2024 at 09:00 PM.
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12-22-2024 08:32 PM
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I would double it up.
“1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 1 - 2 pickup notes”
I’ve noticed the big band drummer counts in a lot of bars. I think it’s better to count 4 or even 8 bars and come in right than count 2 and biff the intro.
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In Cut Time, you're looking at something that looks just like 4/4, but it's actually 2/2. If it was done in 4/4 with a notation "two feel", would that be any different?
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
There's a similar issue in counting-in 2/4. If there's a pickup of more than one beat, the count-in ends up being 1 2 1. On a bandstand sometimes the leader will start the count unexpectedly. So, you need, at that moment, to hear clearly the interval between 1 and 2. But, if you're surprised, you can miss the first interval, whereupon you only get the time difference between the 2 and the next 1 -- and that's it. Often, I can't lock the tempo in that quickly.
Alternatively, the leader could count "1 & 2 & 1". Even if you miss the first one, you've got three more intervals on which to internalize the time. But, if you count that way, you may get complaints from people who haven't heard that before or don't like it. Well, at least I have.
My Brazilian teacher counted 1 2 3 4, even when the song was in 2/4. He assumed that everybody in the group class would understand that those are 8th notes. But, if a band is reading an unfamiliar chart with no tempo marking, some people will think those are quarter notes and play the song in what amounts to double time. So, the leader could say "four 8th notes and we're in. Works for me, but, perhaps surprisingly, not for everyone. I've heard complaints about that too.
None of this bothers me when I'm counting it in. I do it by explaining to the band how I'm going to count and I include singing the first note or two. If somebody complains, I just say, well, that's how I'm going to it. It will work.
But, I play in situations where I'm not the one doing the count in.
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I get why all of that is right, but I find it better to double the count if there is a pickup and 123412 is easier to track than 121212.
I think you’re in a case of what’s right not aligning with what’s going to get the band in on the one.
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I’m not convinced by that clip she didn’t count more before it started. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Why are we having to answer this pathetically simple problem at all?
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Yeah, something like that is what I’m suggesting. Originally Posted by ragman1
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It’s all simple in your bedroom. Try counting in a 16 piece band shuffling through a book of tunes, half of them are 2 whiskeys deep and talking to each other. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Oh, come off it. Just count the thing in. Anyone would think it's in 8/14 :-)
whatever that is
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Djavan counted that the way my Brazilian teacher might, 2 quarters and 4 eighths. 1 2 1234.
If he did that in my big band, with an unfamiliar tune and no tempo marks, some of the players would assume the last four were quarter notes and come in twice as fast.
If he did that in my quintet, one or more of the players would complain that they wanted to hear three quarter notes, 1 2 1 pickup.
Natalie Cressman (great trombonist and vocalist) who plays with a great guitarist named Ian Faquini -- worth searching youtube or buying an album) counted off uh 1 uh 2, which is yet another way of making the tempo clear.
With these two examples, obviously, the band had played the tune before and were familiar with the count-in approach.
I wouldn't have posted the question if I thought it was trivial. If you play in multiple settings reading unfamiliar charts in 2/2, 2/4 or 4/4, sooner or later, this issue will come up.
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Djavan counted that the way my Brazilian teacher might, 2 quarters and 4 eighths. 1 2 1234.
If he did that in my big band, with an unfamiliar tune and no tempo marks, some of the players would assume the last four were quarter notes and come in twice as fast.
If he did that in my quintet, one or more of the players would complain that they wanted to hear three quarter notes, 1 2 1 pickup.
Natalie Cressman was snapping her fingers and then counted off uh 1 uh 2, which is yet another way of making the tempo clear. Many band leaders start with an extended finger snap, so that people have the tempo settled in mind before the count.
With these two examples, obviously, the band had played the tune before and were familiar with the count-in approach.
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Exactly! Precisely! That's the whole point!With these two examples, obviously, the band had played the tune before and were familiar with the count-in approach.
I'm not trying to be rude but it seems to me that someone's making a big problem out of nothing. The tune's in a straightforward rhythm and I don't see the issue.
Who's in charge of this band? Why is the tune 'unfamiliar'? Don't they rehearse? The leader tells them what the count is and they do it, just like those two examples above.
It's not professional to go on a stage 'unfamiliar', it's professional to know exactly what you're doing. And if you don't know, don't do it. I've had bands of my own and been in bands.
The best band I ever worked with was American. They turned up early, set up the equipment, ran through every tune to get the feel of the place, went off to get some food, then delivered a totally tight performance that had the place jumping. Playing with them was an absolute delight.
I don't want to hear 'unfamiliar'. I wouldn't tolerate it for a moment. Who are these people? Sorry, I get impatient with this kind of stuff.
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The issue is that different players advocate or employ different approaches.
I am asking about what, if anything, is standard in certain situations.
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For chrissakes, the band leader is in charge, not the damn players! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That's a theoretical question that has no practical answer. You (or somebody) shouldn't even be asking it. There's the tune, that's the rhythm, count it in.I am asking about what, if anything, is standard in certain situations.
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The bands in the two videos are doing this
but the op is describing this
What's being discussed?
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I made the OP. And I referred to the arrangement I play, which starts with the pickup. And, the question is about counting in my arrangement and similar.
Then, somebody posted videos of different arrangements. Those arrangements begin differently.
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When a band starts a tune poorly, that’s bad. A good bandleader should look for ways to make things “un-fuck-up-able” Originally Posted by ragman1
It’s not all lead sheets and collective improvisation.
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These Latin tunes countdown can be a disaster of the band is unfamiliar with them and you count them in wrong. I always clear things up before hand on such tunes.
Check out the count he does. With the players he plays with, you can count 5/11 and they'll get it right, but If people don't know the tune, and are reading a chart without melody (ireal
) bye bye someone will mess up.
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Thanks for posting this. The composer (one of them) counting in his own band. Originally Posted by Alter
These Latin tunes countdown can be a disaster of the band is unfamiliar with them and you count them in wrong. I always clear things up before hand on such tunes.
Check out the count he does. With the players he plays with, you can count 5/11 and they'll get it right, but If people don't know the tune, and are reading a chart without melody (ireal ) bye bye someone will mess up.
It's samba, so it's generally written, and felt, in 2/4. The Latin RB chart is written in cut time.
So, some musicians will tell you that cut time is supposed to be counted-in in 2. And, some of them may say a count-in should be understood to be 2 bars. So, if the tune started with the first bar in the RB chart, the count would be 1 2 1 2 (then a chord on beat 1 of what otherwise looks like a pickup bar).
[If that first chord wasn't there, the pickup bar, which has an 8th rest and then 7 8th notes, would actually be the second bar of the count-in. Thus, the count would be 1 2 1, which isn't a lot of syllables to internalize the tempo. The leader would be wise, IMO, to say the count in will be two bars and then the pickup bar].
Back to where I left off. In one view, the four syllable count-in is the correct way to do it. But, Djavan uses 6 syllables. In Portuguese he counts 1 2 1234. In 2/4 that would be 2 quarters and 4 eighths. That's the way my Brazilian teacher did it. In this case, the bassist comes in during the second bar of the count-in and the band hits on the 1 of the next bar.
It doesn't seem like there's really much room for confusion.
I wondered, though, in a different situation could there be unreasonable ambiguity?
Suppose it's a song nobody knows with a cut time chart nobody has seen before. And, suppose there's no tempo marking. Maybe the leader counts 1 2 1 2, or maybe the leader counts 1 2 1234. Or just 1 2 3 4.
As a sideman, if you hear 1 2 1 2 you have to figure he's counting the song properly in 2/2. You know when to start and how fast the notes are going to go by. If you hear 1 2 1234, I guess you have to end up in the same place although it might take just a moment of thought to rule out other possibilities.
If you hear 1 2 3 4, I guess you'd have to conclude that it's being counted off as if it were written in 4/4, and the count-in is only one bar, but you're going to try to feel it in 2/2. It's not that difficult, it's not really wrong, but it seems to me that it requires additional thought at a moment when you already have enough to think about.
The more I think about it, the clearer it becomes, but I confess that I had to sit down and think it through. Trying to sight read this sort of thing without having thought it through led to confusion.
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Apart from jams and informal sessions with someone's book, are there really bands that perform music the're seeing for the first time? The risk seems high when their reputation is almost completely vested in how good they sound.
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I play in two big bands which pull charts from massive books and we sight read them. Right away at full tempo. Those bands do gig occasionally for which there’s a setlist an an opportunity to practice but the usual sessions are sight reading new stuff or stuff you haven’t seen in months or years.
In my regular combo one of the players has strong views and sometimes counts in a way I don’t prefer, which motivated these posts.
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Click/clap the tempo for a couple of bars, then "one bar to the edge"...
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This is about counting off a samba, written and felt in 2/4.
If there's no pickup bar, the count should be, according to one view, 1 2 1 2. If there is a pickup bar, it should be, again according to one view, 1 2 1.
I don't think that's enough syllables for everybody to internalize the tempo.
Brazilian band leaders seem to count 1 2 1234. That is, one bar of quarters and one bar of eighths, in 2/4. Once you know the generally tempo of the song, this works great. But, I can imagine a sight reading situation (new chart, no tempo markings) where the 1234 could be incorrectly interpreted as quarters when they're intended as 8ths
Technically, that's like counting 1 2 1&2&. Which is 6 syllables to internalize the tempo, rather than 4. But, if you actually say the "ands", you may get complaints.
Upon reflection, I think the Brazilian leaders have it right. So, I'd like to be able to say "count will be 2 bars, first 2 quarters and then 4 8th notes .. 1 2 1234"
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Yes, they’re called reading gigs. Pit musicians do this regularly and horn players do it all the time on wedding and corporate gigs booked by talent agencies. Originally Posted by pauln
You don’t get to keep the book. Arrangements can cost $75+ for a single song. The bandleader keeps the books.
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