Stage setups for larger venues

[pauln]

There is a big fuzzy fat region of mystery between a band that uses amps for bass, guitar, keys, and nothing for sax, trumpet, drums vs a band that mics through a PA, uses monitors, and sound person for everything. It can be even more mysterious for a band that uses both setups depending on the venue.
The first thing is to seek clarity in the sound for both the musicians and the audience. With a PA, monitors, and someone running the board, clarity for all is potentially possible without regard to how equipment is placed on stage.
When running some folks through just amps and others with nothing, the stage placement of the equipment and musicians becomes more critical as the stage gets bigger.
An old tried and true solution for both musicians and for the sake of the audience was to place all the sources of sound (amps and those playing un-amped) to the center of the stage.
The idea is that if all the sounds are "coming from the same place" then each musician can adjust so that the central source of sound is coherent in time. Likewise any position in the audience hears all the sounds arrive at the same time.
The alternative is when the musicians spread out over the length of the stage and place their amps apart... everyone then hears all the others' sounds from different distances (delays) and if you use an amp you may hear your own sound delayed. For example, if the drums are on one side and your guitar amp is on the other, the drummer hits the snare, you hear that delayed and synch to it as you hear it, your sound goes back across the stage to the drummer, delayed again... These are small differences that compound and confound a universal sense of synchrony and beat. This gets worse as you try to play larger stages spread out. Sound reinforcement fixes this since all the DIs and mics are without differential delays).
The point is, if the non-PA band will use the "central source of sound" idea for placement, they can play somewhat larger stages without a PA (but usually the temptation is to spread out if you've been playing smaller places). If you want to spread out the sound sources over a larger stage, then a PA, monitors, and someone running sound will make it sound right for both the musicians and audience.

[AllanAllen]

I don’t think it’s bad to hear more bass on their side of the room and more guitar on the other side. It’s a live band, not a mono record.

[rpjazzguitar]

If you want my opinion. Your guitar rig is fundamentally over complicated. An amp running into a powered speaker should not be your basic rig.

I would suggest a louder amp and cut out your powered speaker. That’ll be your basic rig. If the room is big enough that the drums and horn needs reinforcement, then look into PA’s. Most rooms aren’t this big.

Vocalist should have their own speaker/personal PA. If I hired a front person I would expect them to have this. A guitarist needs an amp just like a singer needs a PA.

Thats just my opinion.

I wrote and lost a longer response.

I agree that the rig is overcomplicated. But, it's loud enough for anything, I already have the components and I can lift them. The problem I have with it is that it's not ported or open in the back. If I put it behind myself, and it's loud enough for the entire audience, it's too loud for me (hearing issues). If I put it in front, I risk playing too loud.

Similarly, we have to place the vocal mic and speaker so that there's no feedback, but we can still hear her.

I know how to do this with two FOH and two monitors.

What I'm wondering about is whether there might be a lower tech way that will work well.

I have seen some seasoned pros show up with very little gear and sound great. Not this type of situation though. I've also seen gear heads bring in a train car load of gear (yes, I'm exaggerating) and be too loud. And, of course, some gear heads get it right.

[rpjazzguitar]

[QUOTE=pauln;1361112]There is a big fuzzy fat region of mystery between a band that uses am If you want to spread out the sound sources over a larger stage, then a PA, monitors, and someone running sound will make it sound right for both the musicians and audience.[/QUOTE

Sound travels at about a foot per millisecond.

So, if you're 15 feet away from another sound source, say a snare, the drummer hears himself in about one or two milliseconds. You hear him 15 ms later and he hears you 30 ms after his drum hit (if you hit a note when you heard him hit the snare).

If you slide tracks around in a DAW you'll find that you can feel (feel more than hear) somewhere around 10 or 15 ms. By the time you're 50ms off, things are obviously screwed up.

I don't know how realistic this scenario is. Somehow, the band feels the groove together and you're not exactly waiting to hear the snare before you play a chord.

Still, if the snare is miced and the monitor is 5 feet from your ears, that's an amount of delay you probably can't detect.

From the point of view of the audience directly in front, they probably hear simultaneous sounds from opposite sides of the stage at about the same time. But, people way off the side won't. Maybe the music won't sound as tight to them.

I tend to prefer a small stage despite some discomforts. Maybe that's why.

[AllanAllen]

I wrote and lost a longer response.

I agree that the rig is overcomplicated. But, it's loud enough for anything, I already have the components and I can lift them. The problem I have with it is that it's not ported or open in the back. If I put it behind myself, and it's loud enough for the entire audience, it's too loud for me (hearing issues). If I put it in front, I risk playing too loud.

Similarly, we have to place the vocal mic and speaker so that there's no feedback, but we can still hear her.

I know how to do this with two FOH and two monitors.

What I'm wondering about is whether there might be a lower tech way that will work well.

I have seen some seasoned pros show up with very little gear and sound great. Not this type of situation though. I've also seen gear heads bring in a train car load of gear (yes, I'm exaggerating) and be too loud. And, of course, some gear heads get it right.

Loud enough for anything isn’t a good priority for me. I mean, a Marshall stack is also loud enough for anything. You get my drift? How many of your gigs need a full PA?

For me personally, we play bars, corporate events, and small time outdoor stuff. Nothing that I think calls for drum or horn reinforcement. So I use a blues Jr, and it’s fine.

We’ve played a few street fests and the sound guys mic everything. I just do what they ask, at something like that, I think it’s better to be easy to work with, so they want to reinforce everything like we’re a rock band and fight upright bass feedback they can. So far, everyone has figured it out. I wouldn’t want to add that to my setup headaches, much easier to let the bass player handle his sound and I handle mine.

We also don’t suffer from loudness wars that most bands end up in. I’m just trying to give my perspective. At the end of the day you’ll have to do whatever you think is best.

I think Pros getting by with a little equipment happens because Everyone’s ego is in check. Nobody is worried about being the loudest, if they are concerned about hearing the rest of the band.

Just a guess.

[rpjazzguitar]

Loud enough for anything isn’t a good priority for me. I mean, a Marshall stack is also loud enough for anything. You get my drift? How many of your gigs need a full PA?

For me personally, we play bars, corporate events, and small time outdoor stuff. Nothing that I think calls for drum or horn reinforcement. So I use a blues Jr, and it’s fine.

We’ve played a few street fests and the sound guys mic everything. I just do what they ask, at something like that, I think it’s better to be easy to work with, so they want to reinforce everything like we’re a rock band and fight upright bass feedback they can. So far, everyone has figured it out. I wouldn’t want to add that to my setup headaches, much easier to let the bass player handle his sound and I handle mine.

We also don’t suffer from loudness wars that most bands end up in. I’m just trying to give my perspective. At the end of the day you’ll have to do whatever you think is best.

I think Pros getting by with a little equipment happens because Everyone’s ego is in check. Nobody is worried about being the loudest, if they are concerned about hearing the rest of the band.

Just a guess.

We've mostly worked restaurants without vocals, playing quietly enough that diners can converse. When we've had the vocalist, she brings a very small unit which is loud enough for that situation.

But, lately we've been playing bigger venues. Two gigs ago we were told by the manager that we weren't loud enough. We thought we were pretty loud. For us, anyway.

For the upcoming gig, we don't need to be super loud, but I want everybody to hear everything so that we can play well. That's the challenge. And, there isn't enough money to pay a soundman. We have to figure out the easiest way to accomplish the goal ourselves.

As far as my gear goes, I'm concerned that the JC55 may not be loud enough - clean - for this gig. So, my next louder rig is the powered speaker. This may sound like I'm a loud player, but I'm not. I kind of have to force myself to play loud.

One thing I've noticed is that the powered speaker somehow makes playing seem effortless as far as volume is concerned. I can't really explain it well. But with the smaller rigs it feels like I'm straining, probably resulting in picking too hard. With the powered speaker I can set it so that I pick lightly and it's still loud enough. Maybe it's that there's more clean headroom. I'm not sure.

[AllanAllen]

Two gigs ago we were told by the manager that we weren't loud enough. We thought we were pretty loud. For us, anyway.

Ahhhhh, see, if you said this before, I didn't catch this part. This is all making more sense to me now.

[rpjazzguitar]

I went to the venue and heard another band there. Quartet. Good band. Guitar, vibes, drums, bass. No vocals. Soul jazz. Song For My Father, Cantaloupe Island, like that.

Guitarist used what looked like a small Supro amp; plenty loud enough. Bass had a relatively small amp, also loud enough. Vibes through a small powered speaker (but he wasn't loud enough). Drums not miced and not very audible. But, overall they sounded fine. I liked the band.

So, after hearing my trip report, the kb player in my band felt that the needed volume (not super loud) didn't require that he bring both sets of powered speakers.

His idea, if I understand it, is this. He sets up his two small EV's on poles for FOH and runs, kb, guitar and vocals through them. These FOH speakers have to be in front of the vocal mic to avoid feedback.

As far as monitoring, each player brings his own. So, the singer has her little personal PA, I use my Little Jazz (which has an XLR out for the PA) and he uses a little powered speaker.

So, I asked, okay, I get how we each will hear ourselves, but I don't get how we're going to hear each other. His response was that he's never been on a gig where he couldn't hear the guitar. He didn't seem worried. He's got a lot more experience with this kind of thing than I have, but I'm responsible to the client and I don't understand how his solution is going to work. I don't want this to be a gig where you can sort of hear everybody but the sound quality kind of sucks.

My preference would be Never's approach. Two FOH and two monitors. Potential overkill maybe, but we don't have to run them loud. But, it's the kb player's gear. I can't force him to bring it.

One thing I wondered about is how most players place their amps in this kind of situation. If the amp is in back of the player and there's no PA, what keeps the guitarist from blasting himself out on stage - to be loud enough for the audience to hear in the back?

I've done it a couple of ways.

One was to use the LJ as a monitor and to put my Roland JC55 in front facing the audience. One time, the contractor was a musician and I told him to adjust the volume on the JC55 to whatever he thought sounded right in the audience. That worked fine.

I've also used the Mackie SRM350 on one side of the stage (to my right and slightly in front) angled just enough that I could hear it and the audience could too. I had the LJ, but didn't turn the speaker on.

Sorry for the overly long post. It boils down to, how can we do this without real monitors?