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I'm wondering how players set up in situations where higher volume is necessary.
What are good ways to do it?
Today I had to play louder than I usually play. Outdoor gig. I was concerned about putting my amp in the usual spot behind me. My thought that if it was loud enough for the back row, it would be uncomfortably loud on stage.
I went through a Mackie SRM 350 which was plenty loud enough. My solution to the stage volume problem was to sit next to it and angle it so that I could hear it well, but it was still pointing (not quite directly) at the audience.
I could have put it well in front and then used my Little Jazz as a monitor, but I preferred to hear the Mackie.
The kb player connected three speaker for his kb: one behind him facing the audience, another on the opposite side of the stage facing the audience and a third one on the opposite side of the stage facing backward (toward the bassist).
We could have set up these 4 speakers in a very different way. Two out in front facing the audience (daisy chained) and two facing us, also daisy chained. Then, even with my simple mixer (Yamaha 10MGU) we could have managed a separate monitor mix by running the mains out of one side of the mixer output and the monitors out the other).
We didn't try that set up, but I think I like the way we did it better. I liked the control I had. I was listening to the same speaker as the audience and lowering the volume by angling it away from myself. I didn't have to compromise on the monitor mix. With just the EQ in the channel strip, we'd have had to EQ everything based on the mains and then live with however it sounded in the monitors.
I've been doing restaurant gigs mostly, and I like playing quietly. But, playing louder was more fun than I expected. Audience response was great. I think the volume helped.
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07-22-2024 03:52 AM
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Usually, musicians tell me that the guitar is too loud.
Most often, the drummer is loud and I want to hear what I'm playing.
When I play without a drummer, everything is under control.
I don't remember any listener saying: play louder.
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Outdoors is always difficult, because of the way the sound dissipates. I always try to keep stage volume down and let the PA do the heavy lifting out front. Get as much of the band as possible through the PA both for volume, and for spread of sound. But I usually need a bit more volume out of the amp to hear myself than in a room
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I did a 3 hour set non stop on saturday night. I set the Twin to 7. Normally I put it on 10 for that gig but doing some recording and such last week I found that 7 is more or less max power but without going into the heavier break up so quickly when you get on the guitar's volume knob.
To balance it all the other guitarist used a tweed bassman run on about 6 and the drummer and bassist were similarly loud. I never rely on the soundman to get the mix right in the monitors, most of the time the changeover and set up time is way too short to get it right and if it's not right and you don't have any stage volume, you can't really hear what's going on and/or your licks aren't going to come out the same either, at least not for what I do. Volume=sustain.
Outdoors can be complete crap if the stage is bad but if you have a good band shell it can be quite awesome. The saturday gig has a pretty good sounding band shell which makes it a lot easier to get a good band mix on stage without resorting to monitors. That being the case most of the band only takes vocals in their monitors and I like two monitors with vocals only into it as loud as they can get without feeding back.
In a good show the entire band and sound system is basically pushed to it's max volume limit before feedback or distortion creates problems so I always push the soundman to really let the monitors buck. That's my experience with high volume.
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Was that a Jazz gig?
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Blues. But the principles are the same for any real loud gig.
Originally Posted by docsteve
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If it's loud enough for the back row, it's too loud for everyone else. Don't try to please those people, please the people near the stage. They're the one's you can hear clapping. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I deal with higher volumes by not allowing them to happen. I play jazz, not rock, it's not supposed to be loud, so I'm not loud.
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A Twin on 10 is potentially lethal Originally Posted by DawgBone
What you left out is how hot the pickups are and where the guitar’s volume and tone pots were set. There are many, many dB between 1 and 10.
Some famous blues players dimed every knob. Albert Collins and Chris Cain are two whose signature tone comes from overdriving 6L6s nature’s way. Collins could peel the paint off the seats, and Cain is too loud for my taste even through his favorite “little” Music Man 1x12. When I backed him at the Wilmington (DE) Blues and Brews Festival about 10 years ago, he ran his 335 through the rented backline amp wide open. Many great players are / were habitually way too loud for my taste, like Smokin’ Joe Kubek, Coco Montoya and BB. So you’re in an elite group.
But if you think you’re going to get your house sound right just from stage volume control without a decent sound check, you’re kidding yourself. If there’s not enough time to set the house mix, there’s not enough time to determine the best amp locations and settings for playing without sound reinforcement. You’re experienced enough to know very well that you have no idea what the audience is hearing, and it’s not what you’re hearing. If you usually play that loud, you may not even be hearing what you think you’re hearing after years of high SPL exposure.
I’ve played outdoor blues gigs at which loud was the only option. With enough beer, the crowd neither knows nor cares about great tone.
No, they’re not. On jazz gigs, the players have to listen to each other and interact musically to a much greater degree. There’s a lot more subtlety. As solos evolve, your comping follows them. Each time you play a tune it’s different. This is harder to do well the louder it gets - so we need good monitors and good mixes in them. That’s why I wear IEMs. Originally Posted by DawgBone
On blues gigs, everybody’s playing to the beat. There’s rarely any innovation in comping behind solos, and improvisation is so formulaic that bands playing together regularly are on autopilot. There are rarely any extensions beyond 9ths, there are no inversions and there are few drop voicings. Jazz and blues gigs are very different.Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 07-22-2024 at 11:32 AM.
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The pickups are '57 classics. My main tone is the neck with the tone at 10 and the guitar volume between 3 and 7 depending on the song. I have a Blue Note OD on top of the amp with the vol at 1 o clock and the gain also at 1 o clock with the toggle at lower gain setting and fat and tone straight up at noon. I can go from crystal clean to modest breakup that way. At 7 the amp sounds more broken up than it will on a recording. I don't like excessive gain because then to me it's rock or blues rock, not blues. There should be some clean retention to the tone but it should have good sustain and a bit of gain, especially on the high end where you really need to keep the notes singing. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
A Twin on 10 is potentially lethal What you left out is how hot the pickups are and where the guitar’s volume and tone pots were set. There are many, many dB between 1 and 10.
Some famous blues players dimed every knob. Albert Collins and Chris Cain are two whose signature tone comes from overdriving 6L6s nature’s way. Collins could peel the paint off the seats, and Cain is too loud for my taste even through his favorite “little” Music Man 1x12. When I backed him at the Wilmington (DE) Blues and Brews Festival about 10 years ago, he ran his 335 through the rented backline amp wide open. Many great players are / were habitually way too loud for my taste, like Smokin’ Joe Kubek, Coco Montoya and BB. So you’re in an elite group.
But if you think you’re going to get your house sound right just from stage volume control without a decent sound check, you’re kidding yourself. If there’s not enough time to set the house mix, there’s not enough time to determine the best amp locations and settings for playing without sound reinforcement. You’re experienced enough to know very well that you have no idea what the audience is hearing, and it’s not what you’re hearing. If you usually play that loud, you may not even be hearing what you think you’re hearing after years of high SPL exposure.
I’ve played outdoor blues gigs at which loud was the only option. With enough beer, the crowd neither knows nor cares about great tone.
I grew up in the 90's when the old school was on it's last legs and the new school low energy slow tempo 15 watt T-Bone wannabe stuff had begun to take over. I don't hate it but that scene has massive cliche with the fedoras, wingtips, bowling shirts and other stupid stuff i find comical and embarrassing. In the 90's I attended blues shows that were nothing short of rock concert loud.....Buddy Guy with two cranked Bassmans and Holt on 2nd guitar with two plexi half stacks.....Deborah Coleman. Bernard Allison, and some dudes from the cities "Down Right Tight" with Big John Dickerson that would use Marshall half stacks. I used to also have a 100 watt half stack which is why a Twin seems kinda like a toy to me now. "Sensible" volume, lol
Agree with you on the sound check. We sound check and run a song but if you are relying on FOH to hear yourself in the monitor evenly with the rest of the band most of the time it isn't going to happen. Either there is not enough time or the soundman isn't skilled enough to dial in the monitor mix correctly or it gets dialed in only to have people adjust stuff as the gig goes on, changing that mix. Many of the band changeovers are 30 mins or less all said and done. I have played a bunch of these venues many times so I have gotten to the point where I know a good amp location on the stage and some settings that will suffice but truthfully even at the lower volume events I still just count on the amp and never put anything through my monitors except vocals, which I like to have screaming loud so I can work the mic properly. Truthfully I have never done a gig with the Twin vol set lower than 4 but sometimes if I do the basement bedroom gig ($$$$) I just keep the OD volume below unity and add more gain.
All those groups and artists you mentioned are among my favorites. Backing Chris Cain? Nice. Love that guy. One of the best on the west coast. I actually plan on covering Montoyas "trading one fool for another" (yeah I picked that one up from you, killer song) as soon as I get rehearsal time. I've been in the middle of an original record so self penned stuff has dominated all my rehearsals lately.
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All Brazilian jazz. Tunes included, to give you an idea, Bala Com Bala, Mixing, Mas Que Nada, Numa Sala De Reboco, Muito A Vontade and some originals. keys, guitar, bass and drums. Originally Posted by docsteve
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A couple of thoughts about sound check.
First thing was I asked the kb player to go out into the audience and listen to the volume of my guitar. I played a chord I thought was loud and he pointed upward, signaling "louder". I added a little more volume and he said it was okay.
Then, we had the drummer go out into the audience while the kb, g and b vamped and soloed. The drummer approved the volume and balance. He wasn't mic'ing the drums so, in a funny way, we didn't need to worry about it. We probably should consider mic'ing the kick and one overhead for the next gig, but nobody complained about the way we did it.
The owner/booker was there and said our volume was okay, but could have been louder. How often do you hear that when you already think you're playing loud?
Anyway, that was it for sound check.
The bassist went through his own amp only. The aforementioned opinions approved his volume, but, that said, I didn't enjoy having to sit right in front of his amp.
Speaking of that, I don't know how much guitar the kb, bass and drummer could hear. My speaker was in front of them and I didn't bother with a monitor (I could have used the Little Jazz pointed backwards). It was outside, so little reflected sound. I'll have to ask.
Slight digression: The rig I used was this. Comins GCS-1 > Boss ME70 pedalboard > Little Jazz > Yamaha MG10XU mixer > Mackie SRM350 v1 (on a short pole). Using both the LJ and the Yamaha is probably unnecessary, but the rig gets me my sound and, if I need more volume it has an effortless feel (for want of a better description) which I don't get from my guitar amps. More to carry and set up and it's closed back so you have to consider that when you set it up in front of yourself, but you aren't going to run out of v olume and it sounds great to me.
I often wonder why more players don't use powered speakers, especially in light of the accolades for the Bud, which seems to be something of an FRFR device. I'm aware of the size difference, and I'm also aware of the price difference.
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Do sound check level setting on Fender amps with input 2 (-6dB),
then move the cable to input 1 for the performance and just relax.
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Basically I always carry earplugs (or my own mini mixer if playing with in ear), and I make sure I position my amp so I can always hear it. Apart from that, semi hollow is a safety net over a full follow. Then you make do.
I've played so many gigs where I thought "these people are nuts" for the volume used. In some styles of music loud volume is part of what the music is, but it shouldn't happen in jazz, neither so much in blues either (unless it's the rock blues idiom). Most pro musicians of some age are half deaf I think 
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Rocking blues and blues-rock are two different things. Rocking blues is still straight blues played loudly. Blues-rock is riff based music where the guitarist plays licks instead of the changes like your average rock guitarist would. Originally Posted by Alter
Basically I always carry earplugs (or my own mini mixer if playing with in ear), and I make sure I position my amp so I can always hear it. Apart from that, semi hollow is a safety net over a full follow. Then you make do.
I've played so many gigs where I thought "these people are nuts" for the volume used. In some styles of music loud volume is part of what the music is, but it shouldn't happen in jazz, neither so much in blues either (unless it's the rock blues idiom). Most pro musicians of some age are half deaf I think
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LOL
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It sure looks like that was painful for Diz. Puffing out like a bullfrog, not playing with BB King.
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I carry earplugs 24/7 in a little cylinder that attaches to my key ring. I don't like to use them when playing, but I often have to. Originally Posted by Alter
Basically I always carry earplugs (or my own mini mixer if playing with in ear), and I make sure I position my amp so I can always hear it. Apart from that, semi hollow is a safety net over a full follow. Then you make do.
I've played so many gigs where I thought "these people are nuts" for the volume used. In some styles of music loud volume is part of what the music is, but it shouldn't happen in jazz, neither so much in blues either (unless it's the rock blues idiom). Most pro musicians of some age are half deaf I think
As far as jazz being played quietly, it varies. On average it's pretty quiet compared to rock. But, big bands are loud. Some smaller bands too.
Stage volume can get loud in a large gig without a well designed sound reinforcement set-up. My groups tend to bring a bunch of stuff and then cobble it together without multiple monitor mixes or in-ears or whatever we would do with more budget. Usually we can get it to work, especially if we have somebody in the audience who can give accurate feedback.
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