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I'm not certain if there's anything to do about the following other than use better quality main speakers. But, to make sure I'm not missing something, here's the story.
Gig in a fairly big room, at least for the kind of stuff I usually do. It's maybe 50X60 with an "L" that's maybe 20x40 feet.
The singer brings two Mackie powered speakers, maybe the SRM 450, or similar. Looked like 12" woofers. On poles. Singer wants to use both. And, she wants (and the venue wants) the music to be pretty loud. They have a dance floor and people use it.
I bring my "loud rig", which is my pedalboard into the Little Jazz into a Yamaha MG10XU mixer and then into an SRM 350. I can get my sound and it will go louder than I ever want to play. I was concerned that my next smaller rig (JC 55) might not be loud enough -- and I wasn't expecting to go through the PA.
But, there is a problem due to a miscommunication. The singer has not brought a mixer or a monitor. No need to discuss how this happened.
So, my mixer and SRM350, which were intended to be just for guitar, are now pressed into service as part of the PA.
The SRM350 becomes the monitor.
The bassist is just into his own amp. The drummer isn't mic'ed at all. That's the band, just the four of us.
If we were smarter, we'd have daisy chained the two mains out of one side of the mixer and used the other side to run the monitors. I could have run two lines out of my pedalboard into separate channels, panned them opposite with the result that I'd have individual control over mains vs monitor. Didn't think of it until the next day.
So, we plugged vocals into one channel and guitar into another. L and R outputs went to the mains. Then there's a "monitor" output jack on the mixer which we used to drive the monitor. There are no Aux volume controls on the channel strip so, afaik, the mix is the same on the monitor as the mains. There's a global volume knob for it, but, apparently it accomplishes the same thing as using the volume knob on the speaker.
A kluge, to be sure, but it works and we play the gig. During the quiet passages the guitar sounds great. But, when it's louder or I hit it harder. it sounds harsh. I have the vague impression that the harshness is from the mains, but it's hard to tell. I added some compression with the mixer, but I don't know if it helped.
I had the speaker in the LJ turned off. I was hearing the guitar I (and vocals) mostly from the monitor and some from the mains. The bassist was right next to me with his amp turned up for the FOH, which was pretty loud where I was sitting.
I really don't know if the harshness was in the guitar, the mixer or the speakers. I've used my "loud rig" before, without a problem. So, I'm guessing that I just didn't like the sound of the mains. It could be the liveness of the room -- mostly hard surfaces. It also might be that I'm accustomed to having a piano, but this gig did not.
I'm fairly inexperienced playing this loud without somebody who knows live sound better than I do.
Does this ring any bells?
I already understand that the singer needs to bring a monitor and a mixer with a separate monitor mix and FX. Or, be satisfied with one speaker for FOH and the other speaker for a monitor, which I think would have worked well enough.
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07-17-2024 08:51 PM
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I have two thoughts.
Try mic'ing the LJ speaker into the mixing board. I've had better luck with mic'ing the speaker as opposed to using the line out. I've even got a good sound that way with an sm57 on a Roland micro cube into a mixer and the mains and playing pretty loud with drummer, bass, vocal and keys (a micro cube and a mic is a good backup to have in the trunk of a car)
Powered pa speakers often have very hyped up bass response catering to the DJ market. Try getting very aggressive in cutting the bass on the mixer and possibly on the eq settings of the speakers (powered pa speakers often have some sort of eq on the back of the speakers). Neither the guitar or the vocals need much bass.
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When you say 'harshness' do you mean distortion? If it is distortion then perhaps some level between the guitar and power amp was to higher. Or indeed, maybe the speakers.
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Thanks for responding.
Originally Posted by SoftwareGuy
I wish I knew what I mean by harshness. I'm not one of those guys who thinks "there's a 5db bump around 2200 Hz". Rather, I'm one of those guys who thinks "that sounds like crap".
Maybe some bump in the highs, but not super high. It sounded metallic, for want of a word to describe a sound. I like a soft, round sound and instead the louder passages were piercing.
But, I take your point. Next time I'll back off the gain on the channel strip (it was at noon) and maybe take the LJ out of the system entirely. I include it because it gives me control over EQ, volume and reverb without having to walk over to the mixer. It occurs to me that I didn't see any overages on the VU meter though. Maybe I should have been putting out a hotter signal so that the mains could be run at a lower volume? I understand these are kind of opposite strategies but they both involve getting the gain structure under control.
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Can you use the line out of the Little Jazz straight into your Mackie SRM350? Is there a reason you use the mixer in between?
Then the singer can use the Yamaha mixer for her mic into her two SRM450s.
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One thing that could be a part of the problem is the “Fletcher Munson effect”. The Fletcher Munson effect is that when sound is louder our ears hear more of the high end and low end, and less of the mids. I often find I have to turn down highs and lows more when I play louder.
You write that you played louder than you usually do, could this be a part of it? That the louder volume made the higher frequencies stand out more?
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That makes a lot of sense. Thanks. Originally Posted by PatrickWD
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I like the way the Yamaha sounds. But, I can go right into the SRM350 from the LJ (or leave the LJ out and go direct into the Yamaha mixer, which sounds okay too). Originally Posted by supersoul
If I go LJ > SRM350, the singer gets the mixer for herself. But, she doesn't get a monitor. My SRM350 got pressed into service as a monitor - and then there's the issue of how to get signal to it.
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I've wanted one of those for a little while, mainly because a couple of the channels have compressers. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Can you use the fx out for your monitor mix (if you have monitor speakers)?
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I just looked and found this
The Hidden Aux Channel on Yamaha's MG10XU - (ideal for monitoring) - YouTube
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Thanks for this. Originally Posted by fep
I had found that same video. But, you have to pick one: reverb or Aux mix. That is, you can use the FX knobs on the channel strips to control a monitor mix, but only if you first turn off the FX entirely - globally.
We actually tried that during the sound check but the singer wanted reverb.
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Channels 1 and 2 have a compression knob. Originally Posted by supersoul
Also, Reverb #3 sounds good to me.
And going through the Yamaha seems to soften the sound, although I should probably do more A/B testing before making that statement.
I also like the way the EQ on the Yamaha shapes the sound. I dial bass down to 9 o'clock and leave the others near noon. It seems to do something that the EQ on the LJ doesn't, even though they're both 3 band EQ. I'd guess that the center frequencies and cut/boost aren't identical.
It has come in handy quite a few times. Usually, I put guitar and a mic (for announcements and singing) through it into a powered speaker. In the instance I posted about, it was essential for the sound reproduction.
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Just spitballing here, so feel free to ignore if any of this makes no sense...
Maybe the LJ line out is hotter when the LJ is turned up. If you used the same settings as usual on the mixer and the speaker input, you could have been overdriving it just enough to sound harsh but not over-the-top distorted.
This problem also might be as simple as the SRM 350 not being up to the task of handling such diverse input. There are a lot of transients in a guitar output signal, not so many in a vocal. A 10" speaker is kind of small for this task. I'd generally use a lot beefier mains if I were trying to put vox and instrumental mix through one speaker.
Do you have separate EQ for the vox vs the guitar? (Sorry if this was discussed earlier in the thread and I missed it.) EQ for guitar would not sound good for vox and vice versa. (In a more elaborate signal chain, you would have some separate EQ per channel and then overall EQ for the system, such as a graphic.)
Could there be an impedance mismatch trying to feed line out of the amp and a lo-z mic into essentially the same preamp for the speaker?
I see that the SRM 350 has some built-in DSP. Could that be contributing? Can you turn it off?
Could you try to replicate the setup and experiment a bit to solve the issue in a less time-constrained situation?
HTH
SJ
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The speakers are ... for vocals, and generally more mid range. (you don't have sub. right)
Generally I use two external speakers and spread them and also a line out into PA just for reinforcing my set up. I also use a smaller amp...the AER60 (off the ground) and daisy chain the PA speakers.
The key is having your sound loud enough and vol. in Vocal PA low enough.
I also have marked settings on amp and PA speakers That I know works. I can get My sound or whatever sound I want at the time.
(I also have 4 sets of PA speakers... LOL and a few mixers, and monitors.) Clubs or Music venues usually have PA's and engineer or someone who can trash your sound.
The down side is... three amps etc... Too much shit to carry... But you'll have control of your sound.
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Thanks! A lot to think about. Originally Posted by starjasmine
I've used the guitar>pedalboard>LJ>Yamaha>SRM350 before, and it sounded fine with the same settings.
What we did on the gig was Ch1 mic, Ch2 guitar. Both channels went into the two mains. Then, we used the Monitor Out (same mix as the mains afaik) for the SRM350, which was on the floor facing us. I was right next to the singer. The SRM350 was not turned up very far.
So, the EQ from the channel strips was in both mains and monitor. It seems reasonable to assume that we'd have been better off with separate EQ for the mains vs monitor. And, that may have been a significant part of the problem. It may well be that what sounded good in the monitor did not sound as good in the mains.
The mains were significantly bigger than the SRM350 -- I didn't get the model number.
Next time, we'll figure all this out in the practice room.
My current solution, assuming no additional equipment, is this.
Vocal into Ch1. Guitar into Ch2 and Ch3 (using L and R outputs of the pedalboard, which are identical).
Left-Main output goes to one of the mains. The other main is daisy chained from the first one.
Right-Main output goes to the monitor.
Then, pan Ch2 left and Ch3 right. That gives separate EQ and FX for mains vs monitor - for the guitar.
The singer dials in whatever she wants in mains and monitor. Output levels get set using the Pan control (panning between mains and monitor) and the Volume controls. She doesn't get separate EQ for mains vs monitor, which is less than ideal.
Then, the guitar gets dialed in with the channel strip
However, I also have an older version of the same mixer, but without FX. I could put it just in front of the monitor and use the EQ. It would affect both guitar and vocals. Once again the singer dials in what she wants, and I use the EQ in the first mixer to restore my guitar sound. Kind of a kluge but it might work. The advantage is that I don't have to buy anything.
Another issue is that I have thousands of hours of experience listening to an amp which is behind me to my right. I have almost no experience hearing the guitar only from a monitor at my feet. I don't know how big a deal that is, but I do know that it's important to be comfortable.
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