Learning the Real Book (with tab?)

[ruiner54]

Hello and sorry this ended up being long-winded

I have been playing guitar for years without much theory and have reached a plateau where I decided I want to learn theory to progress. I have a good teacher who has university training in both music theory and jazz theory so I am learning the two simultaneously. MY main resource for songs right now is the Hal Leonard Real Book in C.

I am slowly becoming better at reading music on the staff but still struggle a bit with which octave to play when reading melodies from the Real Book. MY teacher showed me where middle C is on the guitar as a reference but while learning All the Things You Are I found a document which had the standard RB format (chords written on top and melody on the staff), but then it had a tab underneath.

Anyone know where I might find more of these? Not so much to rely solely on the tab but to see how notes on the staff relate to the tab. I have always played by ear but when learning jazz standards many of the recordings are played on piano, trumpet, sax, etc.

My current song is "How High the Moon"

I am also open to any exercises or resources to help with this so that I will no longer need tabs at all.

Thanks and sorry for the short novel :P

[JakeAcci]

Let me be the first to say - don't do it! Just forget about the tab, and really learn how to read! For the types of tunes you are talking about, don't look for tab, don't look at tab!

I have always played by ear but when learning jazz standards many of the recordings are played on piano, trumpet, sax, etc.

The instrument shouldn't matter - they are all playing pitches, most of which are within the guitars range. I know it might take some getting used to deciphering the pitches when the timbre is so different than what you're used to, but you just gotta dive in and get the hang of it.

[mr. beaumont]

Jake's advice exactly. No tab. Just get used to it. Best way to get better at reading is to do it EVERY day. It takes a little time...it's so worth it. And use those ears! Who cares if it's not guitar you're hearing?

Furthermore, when I play a head out of the RealBook or any kind of lead sheet, I feel which octave to play it in is always at my discretion, unless a band leader specifies...let your ears guide you there too.

[bobguitar]

If you play how high the moon in G (normal key) then the most logical place to play it is probably starting on the 2nd string on the third fret. The advice about no tabs is spot on. The best way to expand your chordal understanding is maybe to work on inversions, so that you play the chord with the melody note on top. Hope that helps. Bob

[wizard3739]

No tabs is the best advice I can offer. If you read a little every day, you will learn to read. Be able to read and play will take your playing ability to the next level.

wiz

[bako]

I would suggest the best supplement to learning the tunes in the Real Books is by listening to recordings.
This will give you access to the music as you are improving your reading.

[ruiner54]

Wow!! Haha...the vote is unanimous then...no tab. I guess I didn't expect such a strong opinion one way, so if that's the consensus then I will forget about the tab...I should have known that I was doing something I shouldn't be when I chose to not tell my teacher (I was using tabs) - This just confirms I was "cheating". I will just use the recordings and listen to as many different as I can (Like my teacher told me to do a month ago). Some these songs are new to me so I just want to know and learn the basic melody first. Since I was young I have always struggled with reading music and I am not sure why..playing by ear always came naturally to me, as mentioned you can only go so far without learning to read. I guess this maybe suggests I wasn't putting enough work into it.

"I feel which octave to play it in is always at my discretion" - I totally agree with that statement, but for starters I want to learn the basic tune at the correct octave (according to the book). My teacher said it may feel a bit elementary but it's important to learn the simple stuff to have a solid foundation. I think it's best that I first learn it note for note with no embellishments, etc - those will come after I know the tune by heart.

Well thank you very much for the overwhelming replies everyone...I will train myself to read music and completely forget about the tabs then.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Is there a guitar reading method that teaches you to read up the octave the way most jazzers play?

I'm just thinking that for most other instruments, if you can read at all, you can read out of a real book. With guitar, there's this whole other thing that's separate from basic literacy from a guitar method book.

[FatJeff]

I concur - bag the tab, man. INMNSHO it is what separates the thousands of mediocre guitarists out there from real musicians.

[ruiner54]

"it is what separates the thousands of mediocre guitarists out there from real musicians."

I have been a mediocre player for years IMO. I am 30 years old, I go to work, I go to the gym and everything else is learning music...I don't party anymore and I am always hungry for learning...so I have the time to become as good as possible.

I don't have any delusions of becoming a professional musician, but I want to become good for myself, have fun while am I doing it and maybe jam or play a modest show once in a while.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by ruiner54

"I feel which octave to play it in is always at my discretion" - I totally agree with that statement, but for starters I want to learn the basic tune at the correct octave (according to the book)..

That's assuming there is a "correct" octave.

Guitar music sounds an octave lower than written. If you're playing "as written," an "E" note on the bottom line of the staff is your 2nd fret, fourth string, E. But again, player's will often take things up if the melody sits better higher...I love it when I can play the whole melody of a tune between say, the fifth and tenth fret...the guitar just sounds the best there...but if I'm playing chord melody, I'm often taking the melody up so I can play most of the notes on the 1st and 2nd string...

Johnny Smith, I beleive, wrote a guitar method book that used the grand staff (treble and bass clefs) but of course it never caught on, because guitar players cannot walk and chew gum at the same time. At least I can't.

[mattymel]

for me, learning from sheet music is an evil temptress, but TAB is definitely the devil. whenever i learn something from music, i see notes going by in my head, and i remember the same from tab...only random numbers which were very distracting and not helpful in the least.

hate to say it, but start the long road up the "Thorough" Method for Guitar Vol. 1-3 (will somebody please write an ACTUAL MODERN method, please). see you in a year or two. but you'll be glad you did.

...funny, i just told you i hate learning from sheet music, but is there a better way to learn the notes on the guitar than learning to read? thats a topic worthy of discussion. i ask myself this every time i start up MM Vol. 1-3 with any of my students. but afterall i can only vouch (as a teacher) for what actually worked for me...

i kind of dig that Johnny S. idea as i dont really like transposing things all the time. but 95% of the stuff people play on guitar would look pretty silly on two staffs. it would be a different matter if it was all van Epps transcriptions or back 2 part things or something. ive actually found reading 2 staffs not that difficult to do after a little practice. again, reading duets from the MMs with slow students give you plenty of time to start on it...ive done a fair bit of the same things with the Bartok violin duets (which are quite fun).

[NSJ]

What is the basic difficulty with sight reading? I would say it is reading RHYTHMS and their various subdivisions.

I was always taught to think of every 2 beats as one discrete reading entity, like a child eventually does not mouth the constituent letters "C-A-T" but rather eventually reads it as one entity, "Cat".


This is a a dirt cheap book by the drummer Louis Belleson. It only has one solitary note in all the pages and pages of text. But it's the best thing I've found on sight reading rhythms.

Amazon.com: Modern Reading Text in 4/4 For All Instruments (0029156061369): Louis Bellson: Books

[SammieWammie]

Originally Posted by NSJ

What is the basic difficulty with sight reading? I would say it is reading RHYTHMS and their various subdivisions. [/url]

I say reading rhythms is the easiest part of reading sheet music, then on a guitar finding the notes and finding a logical way to play them on the fretboard is much more difficult.

As for reading things, what octave to read it in changes. If the music specifies 'guitar' then it should already be written an higher than it should sound so I'd read it normally, if it's a lead sheet then I'd read it in two octaves, decide which sounds better. Personally I tend to like the melody at a more tenor sax level, rather than an alto sax level. But for chord melody I need to place the melody higher.

And burn your tab. Even if it takes 4 or 5 goes to find a logical way to finger notation on a guitar without a tab as a reference it's far better.

[Astronomer]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Jake's advice exactly. No tab. Just get used to it. Best way to get better at reading is to do it EVERY day. It takes a little time...it's so worth it. And use those ears! Who cares if it's not guitar you're hearing?

So true. I've gotten into the habit of sight reading as part of my daily practice routine and now I don't cringe when I see lead sheets :P

[ruiner54]

Thanks for the encouragement guys...its already paying off...i learned the melody to St Thomas in under 5 minutes and i am most of the way through How High the Moon and its thanks to sight reading. i know they are both easy but i am on my way...St Thomas didnt take much but How High is a song i wasnt familiar with...i just had to trust my instincts. Now that i am getting the hang of it reading music can be actually easier and less confusing than tab.
i just email my teacher any time i dont recognize a symbol

[cosmic gumbo]

Whew! The voices of reason prevail again!

[oldane]

I much agree with all the others who suggest forgetting the tabs and concentrate on reading standard music notation. Two things (at least) to note:

1) Standard notation is THE globally accepted system spanning all nations, all music types and all instruments. I you ever play in a band with other instruments, if anything you will be handed standard music notation (maybe with chord symbols added). Just try handing a saxophonist or a pianist a guitar tab and say "It goes like this". Or just ask the piano player or the arranger to write out your part in guitar tab. It's like asking that your copy of Washington Post is written in German.

2) Standard notation is a graphical representation of how THE MUSIC should be. Tab is a graphic representation of how THE GUITAR FINGERING should be - if you get the destinction.

I'm not blessed with an exceptional ear as some are. The standard musical notation is a visual illustration, which helps me to get the idea - just like a column or pie diagram help helps getting the idea of percentages etc.

[Al_F]

A fun exercise (at least for me) is to play the melody in 2-3 different places on the fretboard, it is really helping me get the where the notes are at each position.

Melodies do seem to really 'pop' when played up around the 7th -12th fret no matter what I see on the paper.