Question Regarding Andreas Oberg and Scale Fingerings

[Jzzr]

I was watching a sample video lesson on Andreas Oberg's lesson site today, and he says that he plays freely up and down the neck with no set fingerings. I know that I spend a lot of my time getting to know the neck by utilizing transposition exercises within set fingerings. Do any of you use this style of no set fingerings? If you do, how do you go about organizing yourself to really know the neck of the guitar? Thx for any thoughts on the topic.

[jbyork]

I saw a similar video -- a joint interview with Jimmy Bruno -- when I was a member of Jimmy's old site. I wondered the same thing you do, but now think he was contrasting his method with Jimmy's, which relies on students adhering to Bruno's specified fingerings. Given that there are a number of ways to finger a given scale, Oberg may have learned many of them as a young player, and -- now that he knows the fretboard and the notes he wants to target -- navigates the neck in a manner that dispenses with one particular set of fingerings.

All the best,
Jeff

[Sandor]

Some people will visualize a set pattern, such as CAGED, but use what ever fingering happens to be convenient rather then doing a set fingering. Some people will practice scales to such a degree that they don't really have to think about it. For example: Kurt Rosenwinkle practices scales in tons of different ways, such as playing the scale on one string at a time, starting on the lowest note thats in the scale on that string, then playing the scale using two strings all the way up the fretboard etc. The more ways you can think to practice the scale the better. The problem with this method is it takes forever, which is why so many people spend time coming up with fingering systems

Basically If you want to be able to play without using specific fingerings, you need to really know what the intervals of the scale are and what different intervals look like on the guitar.

[Jzzr]

Thx Jeff,

It's kind of intetesting that he seems to be encouraging studentsto learn this way from the beginning.

Sandor, thx for the info on Kurt. I think in another forum someone was talking about how Metheny practices on one string at a time. And I think you must be right about learning things intervalically....or else it would take forever trying to find every fingering option. I personally am a position practicer, but I notice when I play, I am out of positiion constantly....just reaching for a logical flow to my line.....which can lead much more up and down the neck. I guess that's how come I'm curious....because it seems that the most intuitive and natural flow to lines and phrasing is OUT of the CAGE.

[bluewaterpig]

This is the same way that Wes preferred to play most of the time, known as horizontal playing. Although they arent exclusive users, most great jazz guitarists can be seen playing like this if you look for it in their playing (Metheny, Martino, Django are all horizontal players). When you learn to finger a scale up and down the neck on only 2 or 3 strings, it gives you a lot of options for articulations and such. It also enables you to play the scale or arpeggio faster and sometimes with fewer fingers (everybody should know the 2 finger Django maj7 arp).

The only way to learn this method is pretty much the same way you learned position based scales; get the pattern and then burn it into your fingers.

[Jzzr]

Thx Bluewaterpig,

That is some very cool information. I have never really heard of this method before, though I have harmonized intervals horizontally as well as 4 part chords. Will have to explore this idea.

[Jzzr]

In particular what ontrigues me is tje options for articulation.

[JakeAcci]

I originally learned boxed modal shapes

Then I learned and analyzed heads and solos and found the fingerings that at the time I thought sounded the best and were easiest to play

Now I don't think about scale fingerings but I do align myself to chord shapes somewhat like CAGED, but very loosely. For example, if a tune is in F I'll probably start soloing between the fifth to to eighth frets as there's an easy F chord lying with that, but from there I'm following my ears and my vocabulary, not scale fingerings. Maybe fingerings for that vocabulary, but not scale fingerings.

I like the ideas of:

1. Knowing any possible way to play anything

2. Focusing on practical ways to execute vocabulary as opposed to memorizing scale fingerings. If you take a Charlie Parker head and analyze each note against the key and against the chord of the moment, you learn the fretboard pretty well and you're learning vocabulary - they don't have to be two separate processes.

[Jzzr]

Hey Jake,

I just tried it with the first couple of phrases of Donna Lee and it creates some very cool legato lines! Thx!

[Jzzr]

Okay Jake......it just clicked what you said about seeing the basic chord inversions to help pave the way!

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by Jzzr

Hey Jake,

I just tried it with the first couple of phrases of Donna Lee and it creates some very cool legato lines! Thx!

Hmm I'm not sure what you mean. I wrote a few different things in my post, so when you write that you tried "it," I don't know which thing you're referring to or how.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by Jzzr

Okay Jake......it just clicked what you said about seeing the basic chord inversions to help pave the way!

Yes, I believe that seeing the chord shapes on the fretboard is extremely useful. In jazz, when we're in one key (which might be for the whole tune or maybe just 8 bars or however long) there are often common cadences with common implied guide tone lines and, well "money notes" that change and resolve back to chord tones of the I.

In a bebop context, I was taught that staying close to the tonic arpeggio and just adjusting for the half step changes throughout the harmony is a great way to navigate the changes on the fretboard. I can be more specific if needed...

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

In a bebop context, I was taught that staying close to the tonic arpeggio and just adjusting for the half step changes throughout the harmony is a great way to navigate the changes on the fretboard. I can be more specific if needed...

I'd like to know more....

[JakeAcci]

Hey PP, a fun thing to talk about, figured a video would be more direct than text:

YouTube Video

[wizard3739]

Good bebop lesson, Jake!

wiz

[JakeAcci]

Thanks Wiz!

[Reg]

So all these fingering, scales, arpeggios and on and on that you learn on your guitar... They are all with a goal, this process is linear, not circular , so what's the goal, the end of the line etc... being able to play what you hear with out thinking about fingerings. You can hear the difference before you play a phrase either low, high or what ever strings you use.
As someone was quoting AO... he doesn't use fingerings because he can already hear any fingering and can move up and down the neck to play what he hears. He can move between any fingering effortlessly etc...
You go through this process of learning the neck of your guitar to educate your ears. The same process with theory, your training your ears... Reg

[jmstritt]

A teacher that I had at one time told me to think of the guitar as a compass.

In order to really master the instrument you have to be able to play positionally but also moving up and down the fretboard as well as left and right as well as diagonally. That way your lines will become influenced by what you hear and not by what fingerings you know.

[bluewaterpig]

Originally Posted by jmstritt

That way your lines will become influenced by what you hear and not by what fingerings you know.

That is a really big problem we all tend to have as guitarists. Sometimes it works well, but we should all be aware of being able to play what we hear at any given moment and not what we've practiced over and over.

Well said.

[Jazzed]

Originally Posted by Jzzr

I was watching a sample video lesson on Andreas Oberg's lesson site today, and he says that he plays freely up and down the neck with no set fingerings. I know that I spend a lot of my time getting to know the neck by utilizing transposition exercises within set fingerings. Do any of you use this style of no set fingerings? If you do, how do you go about organizing yourself to really know the neck of the guitar? Thx for any thoughts on the topic.

I work with Andreas on AGU and he teaches all fingerings of all jazz and gypsy scales. It helps you not get locked into only playing certain positions which can help open up your soling . Here's what he recently said about this:

"The key is to learn to hear the intervals within the scale, then you can play those notes anywhere. A good way to start is to practice a scale on one string at a time."

Good day to you all, hope this helps!

[bako]

3 levels of fingering/fingerboard knowledge

Survival: The knowledge and ability to play a musical something in at least one place

Skill: The knowledge and ability to play this musical something everywhere

Expression: The creative foresight to know how you want to phrase and tonally color this musical something
as well as where and how to express what you hear

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While practicing scales, arpeggios and patterns contained within are great training wheels, music itself is messy and refuses to exist within the confines of any one fingering system regardless of how brilliant it is.

[princeplanet]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Hey PP, a fun thing to talk about, figured a video would be more direct than text:

Thanks Jake, a good approach!

[Larry Feldman]

Ji Jzzr, as one who does the Jimmy Bruno method, I realize that at some point there is a more horizontal part to his method that he showed on his previous site. As for where I am at right now with the 5 shapes, they do help organize my soloing, and I tend to deviate from those fingerings when on a gig and go horizontal just because of what was talked about on previous posts, my ear is taking me somewhere that I can't go if I'm locked into a shape or a position. And nice topic.

[princeplanet]

I'm for CAGED plus horizontal linkages, often via descending chromaticism where the first finger leads down chromatically to a lower position. But I don't believe that guys like Oberg have no horizontal prelearned "moves". Not even Benson is that free on the fingerboard. Wes is probably the only player I've seen on video that seems in full control of uncontrived horizontal lines, to me at least anyway......

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by Jzzr

I was watching a sample video lesson on Andreas Oberg's lesson site today, and he says that he plays freely up and down the neck with no set fingerings.

About four or five years back, I attended a Masterclass that Andreas Oberg was giving. He was playing some great line mostly horizontally along the neck. I asked him why he didn't play the same notes vertically, he replied with something like "that's how he heard the notes and liked the tone".

He's a very fast fluid player and obviously has a very good ear. I don't know if its true, but I heard that he played a lot of Metal Guitar when he was very young, this could have helped with his speed playing.

He's a great player.

Nuff

[Jzzr]

Originally Posted by JakeAcci

Hey PP, a fun thing to talk about, figured a video would be more direct than text:

I could not access your Youtube lesson until today. Thx very much! If I understand properly, you are thinking more about chord shapes, changing notes/guide tones rather than scales. It sounds that way too once you start jamming, and I can hear the changes real well, though it still sounds nice and linear/melodic.

As far as understanding what you meant before.....I was referring to the suggestion to take lines from jazz heads and transpose them by ear in a horizontal fashion up the neck. I think it worked my ear real well, and also gave me options for phrasing that are closer to what I would hear in my head, rather than the phrasing you get using structured scale patterns.

I also noticed by doing this that my ear is currently quite dependent on scale patterns and muscle memory. What I mean is, that is a lot easier for me to transpose a line through familiar scale shapes than to transpose without them. After doing this for about an hour I went back to regular scale patterns, and I think I felt stronger.....earwise.

[Jzzr]

Hi Jazzed,

Thx for the tip on trying to hear thei intervals better. I thought that was probably important, but it's good to hear that this is the approach of a professional non-positional player, and that is his approach for playing in this fashion.

I also keep hearing from people to shed 1 or 2 strings at a time, and to look for chord shapes.

[Jzzr]

BTW Jake, guidetones is something I just started working with, and so far mostly with 3rds and 7ths on 1625 turnarounds. I guess that's a whole other topic, but one thing I heard on this was to consistently use the 2nd finger on the chordtone that you are surrounding.....probably off-topic....I don't know.

[brwnhornet59]

Nice job Jake. I drew some pointers from your examples. I like the approach of staying in one position and looking at how the chord changes effect the the original chord and using the 3rd and 7th of those chords as guide tones. It is very easy to see in a jazz blues. Of course the ultimate goal for me is to have this awareness around all of the positions of that F and play them effortlessly at will without thinking. I work on this a lot. Drop 3 chords on both string sets and drop 2 chords on the upper and middle string sets. Then working on compartmentalizing the chords around F7 in it's other 3 inversions.

Much fun, a lot of work, but man is it paying off.

Thanx for posting!!

[David Reed]

I think Sandor said it best, and Reg seems to be thinking along the same lines. We don't need to limit ourselves to playing within memorized scale drawings. If we have an understanding of harmony, and an understanding of the basic geography of the guitar neck, then we can play anything we can imagine with complete freedom all over the guitar. In my method, this freedom of movement is what we study in Exercise 1.

There is a technique that I call "Mobility" that will teach you to do exactly this. If you want to check it out, come download the free sample version of my book from my website. The sample version includes Exercise 1 in its entirety, so you don't need to pay anything to learn how to do this. You can get your copy at www.ImproviseForReal.com on the page "How can I get started?" And please send me your feedback and opinions!

David