Keeping time

[michaelborn]

I'm at a stage where I'm starting to be able to construct logical lines over a chord, however when it comes to counting and keeping time I'm still pretty much nowhere, I just can't seem to be able to count and improvise/play, thus I never know where I am with regards to changes. Could anyone tell me how they managed to get over this stage and gain perfect time?? What exercises are useful?? Much appreciated

[michaelborn]

also I've recently been spending alot more time on ear training, will this help?

[randalljazz]

this:

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...html#post82716

might want to read the whole thread...

[jeffstocksmusic]

I just can't seem to be able to count and improvise/play, thus I never know where I am with regards to changes.

I feel like a broken record when I write this, but I can't stress enough singing the root movement of the changes. You can do this to band in the box recordings, recorded versions, Abersold play-a-longs, or your own guitar. If you can hear the root movement of the chords well enough to sing them in time, you will have no problem remembering where you are. Plus you will start to internalize various harmonic rhtyhms and strengthen your ear tremendously.

Just from a practical perspective, I'd recommend recording a bare bones version of the tune using only shell voicings (1-3-7) and loop it over and over again, singing along. If you get good at singing the root movement, try singing the 3rds of each chord. If I had one thing to do over in my musical life, it would be doing zillions of hours of this when I was in my teens.

[keith]

I would agree with the comments I've read in this and RJ's thread. Before you can effectively play lines you need know harmonically where you are and where and when you are going. If you can't play the chord changes in time you won't be able to improvise over them. If you want to play in time and you haven't developed that feel ( and even if you have ) you should use a metronome or drum machine. Always start slow, so slow you can't stand it, because the tendency is to try and speed it up and be musical but you're trying to develop a skill to start with. Tap your foot, sway to the beat, nod your head etc do something to physically move with the beat so you can feel it and not have to count. Emphasize consistently one beat in the measure to further feel where the beat is and shift it's location after your comfortable with it to have a feel for where every beat is, always to an objective timekeeper, the metronome.

Sing the melody while playing the changes to get a better feel for when the changes occur. Most musicians suggest starting with the melody as a framework to improvise with in the beginning and this will help you also keep track of where you are. With all of this you need to start basic and work up the skill slowly whether it be the timing overall or knowing the changes and playing the simple root with them as whole notes as Jeff suggested above. If you get the whole roots in time then try them as halves and quarter notes or other combinations of rhythm. Add the thirds and sevenths again working with simple rhythms slowing and increasing complexity with success. It's NOT musical to start with but again you're working on a skill. Developing that feel for time is crucial to playing this music as bad time is death to music. You can play a single note solo or a dissonant line but in time it will work but your logical lines are useless out of time. Hope this addresses your question and helps

[cosmic gumbo]

er...metronome?

[michaelborn]

Thanks a lot, I know this kind of question must get posited frequently. Just to paraphrase, 'feeling' by ear when the changes occur, and hearing the roots, 3rds etc in your head is the way to approach the problem, rather than count 1 and 2 and etc. I guess its always the temptation of the beginner to run before they can walk, it seems that having good ears is the starting point for jazz so I guess that's what I really need to work on...

[TommyD]

There is a fix for this problem, and it's so simple I hate to bring it up. Besides, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record. Use Lee Konitz's method for developing a solo. Here goes, (I hate this! I'm going to use telegraphic style.)
1. What is this thing called love?
2. write out the chords using 4 vertical lines above or below the chord symbols for beats. Forget the flat-fifth, raised fifth, etc. chords for now. Use a dominant for the first chord, and only one chord per bar. I think you can do that on this standard.
3. Play only notes of the chords in a single-note line - mix up 1/2 notes, 1/4, notes, etc. Don't get fancy!
4. Repeat it, changing the notes, but always and only notes from the chords (4 notes per chord to choose from, right?) Play it again and again, trying to make it sound like something. It'll sharpen your ear.
5. When comfortable, add passing notes, and whatever you feel you're capable of. Incidentally, if you insist on knowing every note you're playing, it's a great way to learn the fret board, and to read real music notation for guitar! Start with only whole notes if you have to, and write out the 4 notes of the chords below or above their symbols.
6. While doing this, sing along with your "solo" (such as it is!). It's not the point of this exercise to make a solo good enough to play at Iridium, but to a) learn the chord progression of the tune, and b) to hear it in your playing.
P.S. I'm not smart enough to do all the analysis some of you guys are capable of. I know nothing about modal scales, and never think in scalar terms. It may be because I love chords so much, or because I studied with Konitz; this is the way he approaches all his solos.
One night I saw him at the Blue Note with Brookmeyer, and a trumpeter whose name I've forgotten ( a nice front line, eh?). On one tune, Lee played the ensemble melody but never took a solo. When he came down, I asked him why. He said that it was because he hadn't worked out the tune in "our way", as he so nicely and generously put it. But I learned that he practiced what he preached, didn't I? And now I do too.
Best,
(whew!)
tommy/

[randalljazz]

thanks, tommyd.

[franco6719]

Ear training! Ear training! Ear training! everything else is irrelevant....

[ejwhite09]

Ear training! Ear training! Ear training! everything else is irrelevant....

Agreed 100%. One tactic that helped me was from Emily Remler's Hot Licks, setting the metronome to click on 2 beats set the bpm at half what you want it to be so for 120 set it at 60 then consider the clicks beat 2 and 4 and the spaces 1 and 3. That really helped my time and swing.

[franco6719]

Agreed 100%. One tactic that helped me was from Emily Remler's Hot Licks, setting the metronome to click on 2 beats set the bpm at half what you want it to be so for 120 set it at 60 then consider the clicks beat 2 and 4 and the spaces 1 and 3. That really helped my time and swing.

+1

[cutnstuf]

er...metronome?

duhhh...sounds like a plan....

[Reg]

I know players who have great melodic and harmonic content, but never seem to find the groove, ( they have no since of time) and then there are those that are always locked in and by the second measure you already know what's coming... not much ... so which one are you? The fix for each problem is different. Most rhythms fall into standard patterns and phrases. Before you become a complex rhythmic players you usually need to have firm grip of basics. Standard rhythms are usually strong weak types of patterns which can be as short as one measure or as longs as one through composed line, (not very common). Pretty standard are one, two or four bars phrases. Most rhythms have characteristic accents which repeat and help create the groove. If your playing does not groove, or you have trouble locking or grooving with other players... you need to work on your rhythm and since of time. I might be getting ahead of my self...maybe rhythms not your problem... If you would like, post sample of your playing or verbally try and be more detailed and I would gladly help set up exercises or explain how to fix problem... You don't want to practice bad habits... Best Reg

[rabbit]

Repetition, repetition, repetition.

I know many songs. I OWN only a few.

It's the only way. Then, all of the wisdom
offered here becomes illuminated.
I'm learning to look upon it as pleasurable.

[Claudi]

Ear training! Ear training! Ear training! everything else is irrelevant....

That's the only way. Listen carefully to the tune (when you're not playing, I mean). If you're able to keep the tempo, then listen to the chords try to make an idea of how long they sound and you'll get used to it. When you'll play the tune don't listen to yourself but the other musicians. Listen to what's sounding around you and not only what you're playing. It's like when we walk the streets: some people only care about what they do but don't watch if someone's coming their way, or if a car is aproaching, or if someone is carrying something heavy and they don't move aside.
In the end you'll be able to control what you're doing and what the others are doing. It's a sense you have to awake but as everything in life you'll learn it by repeating it, repeating it and repeating it.

[Reg]

I'm just checking... do any of you who post or believe that ear training, learning by repetition or the play it over and over types of learning methods are the secret to musicianship... well... have you actually reached that level of musicianship that you were striving to attain using that style of learning. And maybe... what is that level of musicianship. I'm a huge fan of ear training, along with many, just as important, skills. I'm not trying to offend, knock or put anyone on the spot, I'm just really interested.
Best Reg

[Claudi]

Dear Reg.

I totally believe in straight forward learning.
Over the years I've seen that we guitarrists make the big mistake of learning things that are completly unnecessary. Too many dot diagrams, many ways to connect scales, modes and chords. Dot diagrams are very useful to start with but most guitarrists (including me for many years) forget to learn the intervals and the note names of the music we are playing. It's a matter of being used to think of 7 seven note names with their altered notes and 7 intervals knowing why they're major, minor, augmented or diminished.
On the other hand, as musicians, it's incoherent to play music all our lives without knowing how any of the 12 notes sound and how's gonna sound what we're going to play and that's one of the reasons why we learn so many connections. Therefore we make sure that we're gonna sound correctly. Some of these connections have to be learned but many others are learned because the guitarrist doesn't know the note names of the scale s/he's playing, doesn't know the intervals of the scale, and also doesn't know the sound of each note.
I myself have been one of them but everything can be learned whenever you decide to learn it.
I, as a guitarrist who ain't in a hurry for learning, tend to learn something more or less until I understand it, and after I leave it for sometime. After that "sometime" I rescue the subject again and study/analyze it till I internalize it.
That's what I did with solfege. I learned a bit of a solo in the key of C and with it I was able to get the sound of each of the 7 natural notes. I forgot about the subject for sometime, rescued the subject again, took the guitar and the keyboard, learned how to sing the altered notes too and did solfege in only one octave in both instruments. After a time I expanded the solfege to 2 octaves, then 3 octaves, and then 4 octaves, and in the piano 5 octaves.
And begun to take out easy melodies. All this took only one month. I'm working on improving it with more difficult melodies now. But if you don't know how to do solfege by yourself I recomend you to play and sing dually any note you want, and when you master it a little you can start with scales, bits of scales, arpeggios, chords (I mean playing and singing each chord note)...etc

When we hear a song/tune we're able to tap the rhythm correctly and even to incorporate improvised beats, redoubles, we can sing an improvised melody. Then we can be able to learn and sing what we hear saying the correct notes, can't we? Believe me, reg; to pass from the point of playing a melody by guessing the notes and commit some mistakes to the point of being able to play a melody correctly the first time really tells you that your evolution as a musician has been great.
Anyway, this doesn't stop here! I still have to work on the chords, but I will make it, for sure!

I hope I have convinced you to do it. The only thing you have to do is to get rid of the fear of being not able to make it. In the beginning, doing solfege is boring but you have to think it is absolutly neccessary for you, and when you feel that you're progressing you enjoy it.

Have a nice solfege time!

Claudi

[Reg]

Hey Claudi... thanks for response. Maybe I should have gave a little history before question... I'm a pro., have a few degrees, one from Berklee in early 70's. Taught and made money from composing and arranging music. My kids are done with college and I can afford to gig all I want, about four or five times a week. I can play what I hear, I can also notate what I hear or play. Just as important as what were calling ear training, for me personally is I understand musically what I hear, where it comes from and where it can go. I've always believed I needed all musical skills. I was just searching for another story of someone who has reached a level of musical proficiency buy the trial and error method. I know many professional musicians who have made their living from playing and still do, most are educated, all read well. Anyway sorry if I miss implied and thanks again.. Best Reg

[Claudi]

Always glad to hear other musicians' stories. This enriches us all. It's not only theory and practice, we have to share our experiences. And less aknowledged guitarrists learn new things that they didn't know.

[ejwhite09]

I just think you need to do repition, only time on the instrument will ever make you improve. Just make sure you're intellectualizing and internalizing the structures and patterns and when you have break throughs really take time to analyze and internalize them. And enjoy them. Don't just do a bunch of muscle memory. Learning from muscle memory is a sure fire way to play bad. It's also horrible because its the number one cause of leaving the practice room and being paralyzed on the band stand because you've made yourself a robot not a musician. I can't remember who said it, Ellington, or Monk, one of the big guys, but he said 'once you learn the structure and formula of music, you have to decide if you're going to be a writer or a sternographer.'

[ejwhite09]

Always glad to hear other musicians' stories. This enriches us all. It's not only theory and practice, we have to share our experiences. And less aknowledged guitarrists learn new things that they didn't know.

+! Practical experience is worth two doses of theory.

[Claudi]

...because you've made yourself a robot not a musician.'

I don't considerer myself that kind of musician! To me musicality is very important. Metal years have gone long ago and I'm much quiter...we'll sometime I put the distortion on and shred a little but after 1 hour or so I get tired.

[ejwhite09]

I don't considerer myself that kind of musician! To me musicality is very important. Metal years have gone long ago and I'm much quiter...we'll sometime I put the distortion on and shred a little but after 1 hour or so I get tired.

Lol, hopefully no one does

[Reg]

I believe you need to decide what type of musician you want to be... and most skills are not, either or, you need them all. The one point I totally agree with... you need to play live with other musicians. (all you can)
As far as balance between skills... you need to figure that out for yourself. As far as the robot thing... I've played many gigs where most would have crashed and burned, but because of my technical, theoretical and reading skills along with my ears... no problems. It's pretty hard for a jazz musician to become Robotic... I use to get simi robotic when I played shows, musicals or long running repetitive types of gigs, but not jazz, I dig it to much, Jazz becomes part of your life. Here's one small detail which will help you appreciate theory. When you play from fake books and see a dom 7#5 ( Bb7#5) . Do you know where it comes from, how it functions or what are the rest of the notes ,(the complete vertical structure). I'll help out... most fake books, music programs, keyboard and almost anything printed... uses "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brant and Clinton Roemer, from the mid 70's. There are very few natural #5's, almost all the time there b13, from Melodic or Harmonic minor, spare me the enharmonic spelling from alt. or 7th degree of MM. Yes in recent years, Harmonic maj and symmetrical sources can produce a #5, but there not common in jazz standards. I don't mean to ramble on... but I've watched to many young and very talented guitarist struggle to become real jazz guitarist by putting in to much time on only a few skills, usually the ones their already good at, or skills with not enough instant gratification. Didn't this tread start with Keeping Time issues...Best Reg