Ear training

cisco kid · #1 06-22-2010, 09:10 PM

Hi,
You play by ear, by reading standard music notation, by tablature. But what about developing your ear?
What is the best approach?
How important is it? (I know sounds like lame question)
You can play by the numbers so-to-speak but the real musicians even tho they may not read have an ear for their instrument whether perfect pitch or a developed relative pitich.
How long can it take.
I learned to type by going for accuracy not speed the same but a lot harder for the stenograph machine (you are hitting more than one key at a time there..like intervals, chords in a way) but you don't use your ears. Those machines after awhile everything becomes second nature. You hit keys (letters, words) without thinking.
In a guitar it's by sound but you are hitting notes...etc.
Any feedback

Thanks!

fep · #2 06-22-2010, 10:37 PM

James,

I think ear training is an very important skill to develop for a musician.

Ear training can be a lot of work... depending on your inate ability.

I had a tough time with ear training and didn't really get much of anywhere until I took a four semester series of Ear Training classes at a community college.

If you can fit that into your schedule I recommend you give it a go. I see you're in LA, I've heard good things about the Pasadena City College music department... it's only $26 per unit for community college in California and those Ear Training classes were one unit each (they count as Labs and meet for two hours twice a week (4 hours total), plus I did probably 7 hours of homework a week). It's really a bargain.

BTW-FWIW, in our ear training classes we had four books, Sight Singing Complete by Benward, Succesful Sight Singing by Telfer, Bach 371 Four-Part Chorales, EarTraing by Benward & Kolosick. You can probably tell we did a lot of sight singing which is a great way to develop your ear.

And we used Practica Musica software which I also purchased for home.

I definately recommend that software.

jseaberry · #3 06-22-2010, 10:54 PM

I PRACTICE and sometimes, I "noodle"; "noodling" is sometimes done with the TV on, and you know what I do? I play along with WHATEVER comes on the TV! Grab it, find it keep up; it's a cheapo, lazybum form of ear training!

derek · #4 06-23-2010, 10:58 AM

There are a couple of other ways I can think of, but fep's suggestion, and the use of solfegio is the tried and true method for centuries.

There is software out there to work with at your computer, but I find I can't sit still that long at the pc doing this work. Guitar College has a theory for the road series that is on cd, so you can do it in the car. I make a few 3 hour trips for work, and these are brilliant for that. I have two out of the 6, because the first few are pretty basic.

another thing is to harmonize your scales in 2nds, 3rds, b3, 4th, etc., and sing these intervals, which gets us back to the kind of stuff fep was describing, only at a more elementary level.

Finally, many pros, including the late Herb Ellis, stongly suggest you sing your lines. So put on an Aebersold, BIAB, or loop a ii V I, and start singing lines over it. Then find these on the guitar. Sing them and play them at the same time. In just a few weeks, you will be able to do this:

YouTube Video

monk · #5 06-23-2010, 03:08 PM

Many years ago, I read an interview with Joe Venuti in which he stated that he and Eddie Lang were taught solfege and sight singing before they were ever allowed to touch an instrument. He referred to it as "the old Italian way". He thought it was a better way to learn music.

IMHO, I think that ear training is the single most important skill a musician can learn.

Ear training should be a daily part of every musician's regimen. Hal Galper said in the videos posted last week that technique is in the ears, not the hands.

Regards,
monk

derek · #6 06-23-2010, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by monk

Many years ago, I read an interview with Joe Venuti in which he stated that he and Eddie Lang were taught solfege and sight singing before they were ever allowed to touch an instrument. He referred to it as "the old Italian way". He thought it was a better way to learn music.

IMHO, I think that ear training is the single most important skill a musician can learn.

Ear training should be a daily part of every musician's regimen. Hal Galper said in the videos posted last week that technique is in the ears, not the hands.

Regards,
monk

The further along the journey I get as a player, the more I agree. However, that isn't getting pushed in the instructional market. I for one, would like to see more resources out there for this.

monk · #7 06-23-2010, 03:43 PM

Hear,Hear!

jsepguitar · #8 06-23-2010, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

The further along the journey I get as a player, the more I agree. However, that isn't getting pushed in the instructional market. I for one, would like to see more resources out there for this.

Totally agree. My ear was terrible and I've actually been spending more time lately working on it than playing guitar. I wish there were as many helpful ear training videos on Youtube as there are "sweep technique" videos.

nic · #9 06-30-2010, 12:50 PM

Wouldn't it be possible to just use your own guitar to train your ear? You could start with single notes, move to intervals, triads, etc.?

fep · #10 06-30-2010, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nic

Wouldn't it be possible to just use your own guitar to train your ear? You could start with single notes, move to intervals, triads, etc.?

I think it's better to do ear training without the guitar. The problem with me is with the guitar I might make a guess miss the note slide up a half step and then get the note right. It's kind of noodling/guessing.

But a good ear is not about guessing it's about knowing. Sight singing is much better for developing your ear, and software where you're not using an instrument (like Practica Musica) is much better for your ear. imho

Edit, however you could use your guitar like this for ear training...

Play a note and then sing that note followed by some interval above it (or below it), you'd pick the interval in your mind before singing it, then use your guitar after to check if you got it right.

Another one, think "I'm going to sing a dominant 7th arpeggio", play a note that will be the root and then sing the arpeggio. Use your guitar after to check if you got it right.

Another one, think "I'm going to sing dorian scale", play a note that will be the root and then sing the scale. Use your guitar after to check if you got it right.

Do all the intervals, arpeggio types, and modes, and melodic and harmonic minor scales. But start easy and slowly work your way up. Intervals first is probably a good idea.

monk · #11 06-30-2010, 01:05 PM

Yes, it's possible but most people get faster results using an outside source without the instrument in their hands. The idea is to be able to identify what you hear on recordings or live. There's no way you can play an interval on your instrument and not know what it is beforehand.

Here's some free online programs and guides:

http://www.good-ear.com/servlet/EarTrainer

http://classic.musictheory.net/90

http://classic.musictheory.net/90

http://classic.musictheory.net/90

Regards,
monk

Jazzyteach65 · #12 07-03-2010, 12:00 PM

I use ear-training programs. I've found that transciption is good too

franco6719 · #13 07-09-2010, 04:43 AM

I have been doing a lot of melodic dictation exercises lately using EarMaster 5. I started out with just intervals, melodic and harmonic, with this and some of the other software programs. But I found trouble getting from recognizing single intervals to 5 or 6 note melodies, for example. Originally, when I started doing this I was basically doing a call-and-response type of thing with the guitar in hand. I decided that something was not going right or not going fast enough. Lately, I put down the guitar (making sure that I don't flail around guessing at the note, as Fep pointed out can happen) and I actually try to recognize patterns of notes or, if not, I sing each one slowly and make sure I get them all right or start again. I think progress is going a little faster this way.

So my point, I think, is that if you use programs (because you don't have practical access to take classes or something), you might want to avoid using the instrument as much as possible for things like dictation and so on.
All of the other suggestions are good too. Try different approached and see what helps. In any case, HAVE PATIENCE and don't give up on it. I need to tell myself this every day.

franco6719 · #14 07-09-2010, 04:47 AM

Also, as someone said, try to transcribe or get as close as you can to "copying" anything musical that comes to mind or on the radio, etc. Try to learn tunes as much as possible by ear.

cisco kid · #15 07-13-2010, 12:44 PM

I believe you're right in using a process...as indicated...away from the instrument to develop your ear for music it makes sense. But in this case a guitarist has to know where those sounds/notes are in regards to the fingerboard also. Yes, I know you're saying you have to do both.
Guitarists with an acute ear learned by copying records (I'm thinking of Wes copying note for note Charlie Christian records). It takes work to develop which ever method works whether you have perfect pitch or not you have to develop relative pitch then. But I have heard Howard Roberts in Arizona younger days doing labor work hearing tunes in his head in relation to the guitar fingerboard. Man, that's great. I've seen people in a music store looking at music sheet and humming the tune by looking at the song sheet...that is possible of course - Beethoven was deaf but still wrote music.
Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback!

Reg · #16 07-13-2010, 10:27 PM

It's almost impossible to play jazz with out being able to play what you hear and understand what you hear. So ear training... Knowing and understanding what you hear... gets your ears together, you also need to be able to play what you hear on your instrument. It doesn't really take that long...if you work at it. best Reg

franco6719 · #17 07-14-2010, 07:24 AM

Eyes and Ears: A Book of Music for Sight-Singing

franco6719 · #18 07-15-2010, 09:28 AM

George A. Wedge (Open Library)

jazzbow · #19 07-18-2010, 07:36 AM

Here's another downloadable ear training programme called GNU Solfege, I haven't used all its content yet but it's ok and free!!
Be sure to download the GNU part as the other one costs dosh...

Download GNU Solfege from SourceForge.net

franco6719 · #20 07-18-2010, 12:43 PM

Those books are all public-domain, BTW.

Claudi · #21 07-20-2010, 12:16 AM

Nice thread!

I learned to sing the notes starting out with a song in Cmajor. It was a bit of a solo. I sang it every now and then. When I internalized the 7 natural notes in my head (1 month more or less) I learned how to find the altered notes from a natural one, so I had to sing the natural note and flat it or sharpen it.
After a time you realize, when you hear or think of a note in a song, that you can recognize the note. Now, to do this all the time and in faster tempos is more difficult.
I believe we learn the instrument the other way around. It's like a kid learning his/her language. First s/he hears the words (notes), recognizes them and says them (plays them). Later s/he learns to read and write the words (notes/scores) and after s/he learns the gramar (chords, scales, intervals, tempos...).
Shouldn't it be like this?