Pick shape=different tone?

[Retroman1969]

Well, this may be an odd question.
I've tried lots of picks and always go back to the Dunlop Stubby 3.0mm picks.
I started using the Stubby, but went to the Big Stubby when I found it was a little easier to hold onto.
I just discovered that they make a large Triangle Stubby and bought a few to try out.
The "feel" aside, the triangle sounds completely different from the other two. It's much thinner, brighter, and very "clicky".
Being the same thickness, material, and general design, I thought it would simply sound like a regular Stubby.
So, can shape alone really make that much of a difference, all else being equal?

Just curious.
Thanks!

[kris]

Different pick=different sound

[Pierrot]

Definitively: Yes!

Nuances vary from very subtle to completely notorious.

I believe the pick, or, for that matter, the nail or whatever is used for picking, is the most under-assessed piece of gear, and should deserve more attention.

[oldane]

Yes. To be more precise, it's the attack of the tone which is very much depending on the pick - but then the attack means so much for our overall perception of "tone". Actually, the pick may well be the most important single factor in the tone. Luckyly it's also the cheapest to experiment with. Something to bear in mind is that there is a difference between what the player hears and whatr an audieance hears fromn just a short distance away. That must also be taken into account by those who don't solely play for themselves.

[mangotango]

Originally Posted by oldane

Actually, the pick may well be the most important single factor in the tone.

Really? Ahead of -

Body Type?
String Type?
Amplifier?
Pickup?

Not so sure.....

[Tom Karol]

Originally Posted by oldane

Something to bear in mind is that there is a difference between what the player hears and what an audience hears from just a short distance away.

Very good point! I sometimes wish I had a wireless setup just to use for sound checks.

As far as picks are concerned, I've been using the new Dunlop Ultex Jazz III's recently in two different thicknesses - 1.14 mm and 2.0 mm. Strangely enough (to me) they sound completely different from each other!

[jorgemg1984]

I agree pick is very important and very neglected (Pat Metheny said this several times). I am not so sure as it being the most important part of tone... But it sure is relevant! (I really wish guys who interview jazz greats asked more times wht pick they use...)

Retroman how do you manage to control your attack with a 3.0 pick? I am using 1.5 and although I love my Pro Plec a little thiner picks are great to achieve a more percurssive tone and to hide the sound of the attack.

[kris]

Picks shape ,material/plastic,wood ,etc/, and different holding make different sound.


FinePicks.com - Home

[oldane]

Originally Posted by mangotango

Really? Ahead of -

Body Type?
String Type?
Amplifier?
Pickup?

Not so sure.....

Excaggeration helps understanding.

But yes, I think it's as at least on par with the other factors. Of these the amp type may mean the most, but the impact of the string, the PU and the body can be tweaked a lot with the amp and various external devices whereas the attack of the tone comes through no matter what you do with the amp (within "normal jazz limits" that is - I'm not talking about heavy distorsion drowning the tone, that's different).

[cmajor9]

I've had the same experience with the Dunlop Jazztone picks. The small 205s are one of my "go-to" picks. I bought some 208s (in the larger "dreadnaught" shape) thinking they might simply be easier to hold onto, but they produce a markedly different tone. Better for strumming than jazz picking.

[PTChristopher]

[oldane]>>> Excaggeration helps understanding.

Ah, so Danes really understand the concept of sales tax on automobiles then.

Chris

[oldane]

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

[oldane]>>> Excaggeration helps understanding.

Ah, so Danes really understand the concept of sales tax on automobiles then.

Chris

Very much so. In Denmark this concept works on most goods, not only cars.

[Retroman1969]

Thanks for all your insights into the issue here.
I learned early on that the pick choice was as important as other seemingly larger factors in regards to tone. I'm learning still just how sensitive those choices are.

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Retroman how do you manage to control your attack with a 3.0 pick?

At first, it would get hung up on the strings and nearly break them. I switched to a thin pick for awhile and let it do the work. But later with practice I learned to control the 3.0... I'd loosen up the wrist and attack with the pick at alternating angles between the down and up strokes.
Also, especially when playing melodies, I hold the pick closer to the tip, and allow the side of my fingers to brush the strings as I'm picking as a sort of safety feeler to keep from digging in too much.
It took nearly a year of working on it before I could really use one of these picks.

[jorgemg1984]

Great, thanks for you reply! Do you feel the tone advantages are worth a one year work on a new technique? Do they sound much better than a 1.5 or a 2.0?

[ruiner54]

I agree that pick/finger. etc effects on said are rarely discussed and can make a world of difference

[Retroman1969]

No problem,
I find that once you get thick enough to no longer really be flexible (1.5 and up) the same techniques are helpful, and that there's not a huge difference in tone to my ears. Then it's a matter of pick design to greatly change the tone.
This is just in my personal experience which is admittedly limited.

[Jazz_175]

Originally Posted by oldane

Very much so. In Denmark this concept works on most goods, not only cars.

Off Topic

Oldane, where are you in Denmark? Copenhagen?
I lived in Copen. about 10 years ago for almost 2 years.

Off Topic End

[mr. beaumont]

I think picks are VERY important, particularly with acoustic instruments (but definitely with electrics, too)

I'm not a "one type of pick" user...I don't think there's one pick that works great with all of my guitars...luckily, experimentation is pretty cheap (unless you're buying 3mm thick Blue Chips!)

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Jazz_175

Off Topic

Oldane, where are you in Denmark? Copenhagen?
I lived in Copen. about 10 years ago for almost 2 years.

Off Topic End

OT:

I hope you enjoyed your stay in Copenhagen.

I am born and raised there, and I lived there till I was around 30 years (in the suburb Søborg). After that I moved around in Denmark a couple of times due to my job, but for the last 20 years we have lived in a town in the southern part of Jutland.

During the many years we have been away from Copenhagen much has changed. Now we enjoy being there for a week or so when visiting family during the summer holiday but we also enjoy coming back home where it is more tranquile, quiet and less crowded. I guess it's a sure sign of us becoming old farts.

OT end.

[starjag]

Originally Posted by kris

Picks shape ,material/plastic,wood ,etc/, and different holding make different sound.

+1

The mass of the picks above is not constant either.

[AlsoRan]

Originally Posted by Retroman1969

Well, this may be an odd question.
I've tried lots of picks and always go back to the Dunlop Stubby 3.0mm picks.
I started using the Stubby, but went to the Big Stubby when I found it was a little easier to hold onto.
I just discovered that they make a large Triangle Stubby and bought a few to try out.
The "feel" aside, the triangle sounds completely different from the other two. It's much thinner, brighter, and very "clicky".
Being the same thickness, material, and general design, I thought it would simply sound like a regular Stubby.
So, can shape alone really make that much of a difference, all else being equal?

Just curious.
Thanks!

Retroman, thanks for your post. It has greatly impacted my tone.

I researched your pics and chose the Big Stubby and the Jazztone 205. I have used Dunlop jazz III stiffos for the past couple of years.

I love the Big Stubbys tone but it is a little too big for my technique.

The Jazztone 205 is smaller shape and has a great feel against the strings, not quite as harsh and unyielding as the Stiffo. It could be my technique and not being used to the new pic yet; but, I am finding that I have to play a little harder to get the same volume on my guitar (unplugged) with the 205s. But the pic really feels good when I hit the string, kind of like the calloused flesh of a fingertip.

Since I like the Big Stubby's material, I ordered the little Stubby, which only came in a larger minimum quantity so it costs more (hope I like it). I ordered it in 2.0 and 3.0 sizes. It has not come in yet.

The tone on these things is so nice for Jazz, more of a blunted sound to my ears. By comparison, the Jazz III Stiffo rings out like a fingernail, as opposed to a calloused fingertip sound (which I like better). I will keep the Jazz III for other genres of music.

[tonedeaf]

I am not going to attempt to quantify it but I definitely use different picks with different guitars and with different tempos. I mostly use the JazzTone series and find the different shapes help me get the tone I want. (Side note: I started playing the other day and things sounded horrible -- I was going crazy trying to figure it out. Then I noticed a small ding in the pick I was using -- got a new one and all was well.

[Retroman1969]

Cool, I'm glad this helped.
I have also used the Jazz III and had the same issue with it. Clicked and rang too brightly like a fingernail. A blunted sound is a good description of the Stubby and Big Stubby. Nearly a flesh sound, but with a bit more definition. Closest comparison I can think of is kind of a "Herb Ellis" sound.
I've switched back to the little Stubby for a bit because it forces d to hold it closer to the tip allowing me to feel the strings and have a bit more control.
AlsoRan, I hope you like the small Stubbys since you had to order in bulk. I love 'em, but they are really small so at first you have to concentrate to hold onto them (or at least I do). Let me know what you think about them.
I have wanted to try the Jazztones, but I have the opposite problem. None are available locally so I'd have to order in bulk over the net. The Stubbys are in most of the shops around here so I can buy a few at a time.

[Jazz_175]

...so I looked into my drawer and found a little stubby 3.0 and a normal one 2.0. I bought them some time ago, but never really used.
I tried again, but didn't like them (again).
They seem to me "not silent". They produce a "deng" when they hit the string and also the sound is not warm.
I prefer the Dunlop Gator Grip 2.0 mm, especially after it has been used for quite a while, because the edges smooth out and the sound improves.
Also the Dunlop Delrin 2.00 mm is nice (but after a lot of playing).
These are just my preferences.

[Retroman1969]

Actually, I know the "deng" you're talking about, and it's the only thing I don't like about those. Thanks for the head's up on the 2.0mm Gator Grip. Always curious about new suggestions. I found that the Guitar Center here stocks those, so I'm going to pick up a pack tomorrow and try them out.

[Retroman1969]

Well, turns out there was a small guitar shop near where I had a photo-shoot today that had both the Gator Grips and Jazztones, so I picked up a few and had kind of a "Jazz Pick Shootout" when I got home.


To be honest, these three are so close, that I'd be perfectly happy with any of them. They'd easily be the top three choices of any other picks I have yet tried.

-They all produce that dark blunt tone and they do all occasionally make that "denk" sound. I guess that's just a characteristic of such thick hard picks. Admittedly, the Stubby probably made the loudest "denk", but not by much.
-Really, at first I didn't like the Gator because the odd textured material made a loud "schuff" noise and dragged a bit against the strings, but soon the tip started smoothing out and I'm liking it better the more I play it. It had a slightly warmer, fuzzier tone than the other two, which were a bit cleaner and more defined.
-The Stubby, probably because of the size, gave me the most control.
-The JazzTone 207 ended up being my favorite just by a hair. The shape, size, and composition made it grip the best. It made the least noise against the strings, and struck a great balance between dark and defined tone (almost identical in tone to the Stubby... But I really do like the slightly "smokier" tone of the Gator as well).

[Jazz_175]

Hey Retromann69, how's going with the picks!
Keep using the Gator until it smooths out.
If you like picks with small dimensions I just wanted to suggest another pick, which is PickBoy Jazz 1.5 mm, not easy to find, but I like it.

[Retroman1969]

Thanks Jazz, the Gator and JazzTone are quieter than the Stubby and that's becoming more apparent the more I trade back and forth, but I keep gravitating more and more to the JazzTone. For my purposes, it just feels perfect in my hand, easy to control, nice clean dark thumpy sound, and ultimately the quietest against the strings during the attack.

[Gitarguy]

Picks are very important to the sound. Most people don't really ever think about it, but the size, shape, thickness, and composition all can make a difference. It ranges from subtle to drastic, but we all should experiment and find what works for different situations.

A new kind of pick is the cheapest set of new pickups you can buy.

[capt_kurk]

Picks are not only important to general sound and tone, but in general, the attack of any sound is quite defining. Imagine recording the same note being sustained on multiple different instruments, then removing the attack and the end of the decay on each track. Then get someone to blindly compare and identify each instrument in the recording. It's quite the difficult task.

Otherwise, I feel like anything else I could add has already been spoken for. Shape of the point (related to thickness, composition, contour) all factor quite heavily on the attack and emphasis of certain frequencies on the string. Ever wonder why thumb picking can sound so dull?