volume and tone

[Dstring]

My guitars sound completely different, tone-wise, when the volume is at different levels. The change in tone forces me to change the way I play, and when I'm playing live, I don't have time to fiddle with settings. I don't play concerts, just the usual casuals. Have you found a way to keep your tone the same when adjusting your volume? Thanks!

[marcwhy]

It depends on what you mean by "tone." I think gear will sound different in different venues, so minor "tweaking" could be needed from your room to a gig, but i would think your overall sound would be the same ..

Marc

[RuffRider]

If you are using the volume control on the guitar to adjust the volume of course it will change the tone. Rolling back the volume control on the guitar itself will take off some of your highs/treble. There is something that may help a little.
Treble Bleed Wiring - GM Arts - Guitar Pickups
This link has a set up that helps in that reguard.

[jorgemg1984]

I have had the same problem several times and I even started a thread about it

http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...l-volumes.html

There can be several reasons for that happening: there are some frequencies your ear only gets at louder volumes; some frequencies can be a little overwhelming if you are near the amp and the amp is loud but things can be fine if you are away from the amp; the volume knob interacts with the tone stack controls in a lot of amps so turning it up can change your previous tone...

The best amp I had in that department was the Henriksen, sounded very similar at allmost all volumes. Too bad I didn't liked how it sounded that much...

[mambosun]

Originally Posted by Dstring

My guitars sound completely different, tone-wise, when the volume is at different levels. The change in tone forces me to change the way I play, and when I'm playing live, I don't have time to fiddle with settings. I don't play concerts, just the usual casuals. Have you found a way to keep your tone the same when adjusting your volume? Thanks!

I was confronted to the same problem playing with my rock band, but mostly have issues about distotion tone change when rolling off the voluime knob of my guitars.
The effective solution I found is to incorporate a volume pedal in my pedalboard.
I currently use a Boss FV500L and I'm very statisfied with it, wether at gigs or rehearsals.
The "L" label means low impedance, hence this pedal must be positionned at the end of the effect chain in order to only act as an overall volume control without interacting with effects upstream.

[mattymel]

riding the volume knob is a tough habit to break. i find it much more easy to coax good sounds out of the volume than the tone knob.

certain players use theirs, other not at all. jim hall is constantly riding his. blends to more of an acoustic sound. he will use his to drop in to more of a strummy type thing. you also get more of an acoustic sound when the volume is low.

i dig it. i find it works better on single coils than HB...

[jorgemg1984]

My previous post was about volume knib on the amp. The one on the guitar it's easier to use a volume pedal like the Boss one (that has a volume knob also so you can set your minimum volume above zero) à la Kreisberg,

[PTChristopher]

>>> My guitars sound completely different, tone-wise, when the volume is at different levels.

This is a common problem with the volume knob on the guitar, and the change that using the volume knob can cause in this high impedance circuit. It is far more severe with some pickup and pot value combinations than with others.

The link from Ruffrider shows a very basic treble bleed which can help.

In my opinion, it is usually necessary to go to a more complex bleed circuit using 2 resistors and a cap, vs. the single cap that is in the link from Ruffrider.

Anyway, yes you can fix the problem - or very significantly improve it anyway. But if you are fairly critical, it can take some fiddling with the values to make a treble bleed circuit work really well.

If you are handy and want to try, let me know and I'll suggest some starting resistor and cap values this evening. It would help if you identify the pickup you are using and the value of your volume pot.

Chris

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

Your guitar's volume potentiometer (its resistance) forms a low-pass filter with the capacitance of your cable and the input of your amplifier. Assuming capacitance is fixed, a low-pass filter will progressively roll-off high frequencies as resistance is increased. Increasing the resistance in this filter is exactly the effect of turning down your volume.

Just a small leap and we can see why this problem is more prominent with a 500K potentiometer versus a 250K one (more resistance as turning down).

The best way to fix this is active electronics in your guitar. A buffer will effectively isolate the resistance of your guitar from the capacitances thereafter. Your guitar will sound brighter with the volume wide open, too. A suitable resistor can be placed at the output of the buffer to return you to your normal, darker tone with the volume up. Most people don't want to deal with batteries or phantom power for the electronics, so this solution is often ignored. It will also alter the behaviour of certain effect pedals, though none that I could imagine most jazz players using.

The "treble bleed" fix is OK. Always sounds strange to me, though.

[SamBooka]

Originally Posted by Insufferable_Rhythm

The best way to fix this is active electronics in your guitar. .

We lost the patient but we saved the leg....

I would go for the 99cent solution and the 3.99 cent solution first.. if that doesnt work you are out 5$.

[Insufferable_Rhythm]

What are you getting at? Nothing wrong with active electronics. In fact, I believe some people actually amplify musical instruments using them.

My solution can be built for less than a dollar, too. If you can install a treble bleed, you can build the circuit.

[Dstring]

Thank you all for your insights. My main guitar has a Bartolini floating pickup; I don't know what the pots are. I've used a volume pedal in the past, but seem to forget what I'm doing and step on it when I get excited (I found the note!). The other aspect of the volume pot problem is that all the gain seems to be in the last 10% of the pot's rotation, so it is super touchy- I give it a little bump and I have a big volume shift. I wish it were spread out more evenly- is that possible?

[mattymel]

im a believer in finding good pots and caps for your volume and tone. i have switched all mine out (as gibson evidently cant be bothered to splurge on good ones) and can now use 75% more of the volume range of my guitar without any muddiness. i have found the Boss volume pedal to also be low quality as far as tone suck. you could look into a qulaity volume pedal like a goodrich or the like. but i would start with some quality pots from a place like RS Guitarworks. they test every pot to certain specs.

[PTChristopher]

In my opinion Insufferable_Rhythm really explains the issue with the high impedance RLC circuit of our passive guitars.

We have pathetic-at-best signals. High impedance sounds like a good thing, but all it means is that the relative current is pathetically low compared to our (also pretty low) voltage coming out of the guitar.

"Buffering" in this case means conditioning the signal to change the relative level of current vs. voltage - we lower the impedance - or we give it a stronger current compared to the voltage. This has a significant effect on how the signal reacts to changes in resistance (R), capacitance (C), or inductance (L).

A buffered, low impedance signal was really in fashion in the late 70's and early 80's. Alembic guitars, Stanley Clarke with his XLR connector on the bass, yours truly cranking out the micro pre-amps and doing on-board installation, and who could forget Alembic "Stratoblasters" (commercial one-transistor pre-amps) blowing FETs (transistors) even faster than Jimmy Carter was introducing "stag-flation". Ah, the good old days.

[Insufferable_Rhythm]>>> My solution can be built for less than a dollar, too. If you can install a treble bleed, you can build the circuit.

No question that a basic IC or single transistor pre-amp is cheap, easy to do, and will drive 100 feet of cable (and your volume pot) with no practical loss, very low sensitivity to hum, and no practical tone change with volume adjustment.

It also is out of style for much of the jazz guitar community.

No problem to run a Fishman and a 9V battery in a flat top. But in a traditional archtop? I'd sooner wear bell bottoms and a Nehru Jacket (or maybe a turtleneck with an Aztec Calendar medallion).

Pre-amps work. They work great. A well designed one (and I am sure Insufferable_Rhythm can crank out a design in 60 seconds) will draw so little battery power that the battery will last for nearly its unused shelf life.

But in my opinion/experience, it is also quite practical to install a bypass on the volume control that can be easily tuned to provide acceptably even tone throughout the volume adjustment on a passive guitar.

It is, in my opinion, a fashion choice. Some are offended by 9V batteries, some are offended by "treble bleed". I don't think much of plaid pants myself.

Chris

********

Hi I_R,

I mean a "treble bleed" bypass that runs a resistor in series with a cap (R1 and C1), then has a second resistor (R2) in parallel with the R1 and C1. Maybe rough starting values for a typical humbucker and 500K pot of:

C1 .001uf
R1 82K
R2 220K

[Dstring]

What a remarkably well considered statement. I am, for some strange reason, indeed offended by those pesky 9V batteries. I will see if my local guitar tech can understand how to implement the treble bleed you recommend.

[PTChristopher]

D,

The values I show are only basic staring points, although anything really different, like 2X or .5X the values might suggest a problem with what your tech is doing.

The easiest way to do this is to grab a pair of 250K or 500K trim pots and a .001uf cap. Then you can fiddle with the two trim pots and see how this can modify the tone as you use the volume control.

But, fashionability aside, in my opinion Insufferable_Rhythm still gives the "real" solution - condition your signal with a buffer that drops the impedance

So the circuit I suggest is really a work-around that allows us to continue on in our delusional (but way-fashionable) world of "no 9V in the guitars" yet have a usable volume control.

What is the guitar in question? What PU? What value volume pot? Inquiring minds want to know.

[whosgarethparry]

thank god for this thread!!!

treble loss as i roll down the volume is such a pain.

i run a 335 style guitar, with gibson 58's in it.

>>>PT Christopher -

But in my opinion/experience, it is also quite practical to install a bypass on the volume control that can be easily tuned to provide acceptably even tone throughout the volume adjustment on a passive guitar.

How do i do this??? this is what i need, to roll off the volume, and still have the bite and punch......

apologies if you already showed how, i'm an electronics newbie......

[hallpass]

Originally Posted by Dstring

My guitars sound completely different, tone-wise, when the volume is at different levels. The change in tone forces me to change the way I play, and when I'm playing live, I don't have time to fiddle with settings. I don't play concerts, just the usual casuals. Have you found a way to keep your tone the same when adjusting your volume? Thanks!

I know what you mean. I've used a clean boost pedal in the past before to help. These days I mainly adjust the volume on the amp to the size of the room I'm playing in. Then I'm always adjusting the volume to go between comping and solo and whatnot.

[PTChristopher]

[Gareth]>>> How do i do this [treble bleed thing that has been declared a half-measure abomination anyway]?

Hi Gareth,

There are quite a few tutorials on the subject online.

I add a slight wrinkle that in my opinion allows for a more careful tweak, but this would hardly constitute a breakthrough.

I'd need to tediously describe how a volume pot works, and how to make sure that what anyone does would give them a good chance of success - since I do not want to be a source of luthio-web-twaddle.

But if there is a reasonable amount of interest, I can do a quick drawing tomorrow and post a basic:

Here's what we're doing.
Here's why we're doing it.
Here is what to expect.
Here is what to watch out for.

Also, please understand that criticism, alternate opinion, outright outrage, or other heckling would be absolutely encouraged.

And in ALL cases, what your luthier says, with you and your guitar in front of him/her, takes priority over anything I may suggest. It is so easy to have a miscommunication in a forum that a tech would easily avoid with the guitar in-hand, and you in-person.

[bluemood]

I have a treble bleed on one of my guitar and I don't think I dig it very much .
I ride my volume knob alot and when I pull back on it, doesn't darken up and sound kind of thin and shrill.

[PTChristopher]

>>> sound kind of thin and shrill

But that is not something you have to live with. You can adjust the behavior of the bleed fairly easily.

[Tom Karol]

I'm a basket case when it comes to fiddling with knobs; despite my detailed experimentation and resultant 'cheat sheets', I never seem to hit the target right where I want it on the first try, so now ...

On my Jazz box, I find the 'sweet spot' for the tone and volume controls and then I adjust my right hand method of attack for switching between comping and soloing. On my Tele, I use the compressor on my Carl Martin Quattro as a clean boost (compression set on 0, level set to taste) for leads.

I think it might be nice to have a pre-settable volume switch rather than a knob that you have to twirl accurately in real time.

As far as active circuits are concerned, I have no opinion either way, but Bill Lawrence says, "Batteries are for flashlights!"

[Synchro]

Originally Posted by bluemood

I have a treble bleed on one of my guitar and I don't think I dig it very much .
I ride my volume knob alot and when I pull back on it, doesn't darken up and sound kind of thin and shrill.

I'm wit' you. I've had guitars with treble bleed mods and felt that I had given away a feature, the tone cut when rolling down the volume.