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This discussion started in another thread and I think its an important one so I decided to start its own thread.
A lot of times you adjust your amps EQ and you get a good sound an then realize you need to turn up the volume because you are not loud enough and the sound changes completely - much boomier and trebly. And when you have to put the amp at a decent volume sometimes no matter how much you dial the buttons its really hard to take all the boominess and piercing highs of the amp... Any tips for getting that sweet low volume sound at high volumes? (tried to increase the sound before the amp with the boost on my EQ pedal and it doesn't work)
Thanks!
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10-28-2011 06:07 AM
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Google "Fletcher-Munson curve" and that will explain it.
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Thanks, will do that!
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That pretty much explains it. This is why usually when you are playing with your amp at practice volumes you have to turn up the bass, then when you crank the amp up it usually sounds boomy, because you have too much bass.
For this reason, when you are setting your EQ for your amp it is important to do it at gig volumes, because otherwise you will likely have overcompensated in the low end and end up with a boomy and muddy tone at the gig.
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If you weren't going to start this thread, I was. I know the Fletcher-Munson curve, and while still relevant, it's slightly off the mark in reference to this thread.
I'm going to quote Henriksen's website here, as another forum-goer mentioned the JazzAmp as responding similarly at all volumes timbre-wise. Take it with a grain of salt. They are trying to sell you something here.
Henriksen Guitar Amplifier: compact, solid state, small, inexpensive, powerful guitar amplifier
It should never be forgotten that 90% of a guitarists' tone is a result of that player's skill. After that come the guitar, the amp, strings, picks, cords, etc. Each of these in smaller and greater proportion contributes to the artist's performance in either a positive or negative fashion. If the player is happy with what he/she hears and feels from the equipment then all that is left is to focus on the performance. On the other hand we all know what a distraction it is to find yourself using guitar with a fret rattle or an amp that breaks up and clouds a dissonant chord that cries out for clarity.
The Henriksen JazzAmp was created in 2006 to satisfy a void in the marketplace for a jazz archtop guitar amplifier that produced a pure and true reproduction of the instrument's tone. After having purchased a number of amps, and trying out an even larger number purporting to be jazz friendly amplifiers, I saw a common flaw in the basic design of all of these amps, at least for playing jazz. To my way of looking at it, that common flaw was in the institution of tone circuitry. Why not, I thought, create an amp with no tone controls at all. That would leave "tone color" decisions as the exclusive province of the instrument. The presumption is made that a high quality jazz archtop inherently has built in the jazz tone desired which then only needs to be made louder. Time and market acceptance has proven this to be a valuable insight.
Tone controls on conventional amps can be characterized as either low pass filters (bass), high pass filters (treble), or band pass filters (middle). Most are passive filters which give them the ability only to reduce unwanted frequencies. Some are active filters which allow some level of amplification of a particular spectrum. In general, a bass control works by reducing the magnitude of higher frequencies above a certain "cutoff". A treble control works by reducing the magnitude of lower frequencies below a certain "cutoff".
The problem with all of this is that all of the controls are "eating" part of your signal. In the jazz world we experience this by finding that we have to choose between higher notes that are "thin" or lower notes that are "boomy". Our ear tells us that neither compromise is acceptable. So we spend the gig fine tuning the bass/treble controls in search of the "sweet spot", only to go home unsatisfied. Removing the tone circuitry completely eliminates undue influence by the amplifier and leaves the establishment of tone up to the player and their instrument where it properly belongs.
Recording studios abandoned conventional tone controls in favor of graphic EQ decades ago. I saw the need to add a studio quality graphic equalizer to the amp. The purpose of the EQ is not so much to color the tone but to compensate for the environment the instrument is played in. Different venues carry sound in different ways. The EQ circuits on the JazzAmp are set up to increase or decrease 5 different frequency bands by +-10db. What makes a true EQ such as ours different is that is does not have any affect on frequencies outside its band. When you turn up the 300 Hz control on a JazzAmp you are affecting only frequencies between 150 Hz and 600 Hz. Turning it up actually amplifies the presence of that band in the signal path. Turning it down draws that frequency band closer to ground without having any effect on any of the other frequency bands. There is an entire paper on this web site dedicated to the use of our EQ controls.
Rock amps are generally "toned" on purpose to get rid of mid range tones between 100 and 900hz and emphasize the second and third harmonic elements from 1000hz and above (lots of treble). This should help to explain why an amp that is great for rock is generally a poor choice for playing jazz. Amp makers, particularly boutique tube amp makers have bought into the idea of "toning" the electronics to achieve the jazz tone. Changing the cutoff frequencies of the treble and bass controls does not alter the fundamental problem, which is interfering with the signal path via the use of tone controls in the first place. It merely serves as a fine tuner of sorts for the ear of the person doing the design. In different environments, or with a different guitar, the tone does not replicate itself in the same fashion as in the designer's studio leaving the musician to adjust the tone control and thus fall victim to the proverbial search for the coveted "sweet spot".
Apart from creating an "un-toned" amplifier intended only to make the sound louder we believe, and have proven in practice, that the design of the cabinet and the choice of speakers is a proper and effective "toning" of sorts. There is no such thing as an all-purpose combo amplifier that provides great tone from classical jazz to 90's rock. We readily admit that a Henriksen JazzAmp-10, as great as it is for jazz, is by its nature a poor choice for rock. However, that has nothing to do with the electronics. By using a different speaker cabinet, one can achieve about any sort of tone desired. For example, a JazzAmp-10 is not particularly commanding when playing an acoustic flat top guitar. However if you plug one of our "Tweety" cabinets into the extension speaker jack it is a whole new world. The 3 kHz and 10 kHz controls on the EQ have new life and give you as much or as little ring and finger noise as you desire. In that configuration a flat top player will experience the full range and tonality of their instrument. As mellow as a standard JazzAmp is, a Telecaster plugged into our Convertible ER configuration can create a sound shrill enough to break glass with the exact same electronics contained in the JazzAmp-10. The difference is simply in the speaker(s) and cabinet.
Small combo amps are very important to jazz musicians, which is why we build the JA-10 and the JA-12 models. The Henriksen Convertible series of product is just as portable, though slightly heavier but is modular and far more flexible. A Convertible consists of an amplifier head, a speaker cabinet, and a padded gig bag that holds them both. Not quite as "grab and go" as a combo but for a musician that plays multiple genres the convertible offers the opportunity to use a different speaker cabinet on different gigs. The other thing that musicians tell us is that they will travel with the head and have to rely on the venue/promoter only to supply a speaker cabinet. A number of top artists take our head on the road and when they inevitably encounter a Fender twin or a Roland jazz chorus on the bandstand they simply disconnect that amp from its speakers and plug in our head to the speakers instead.Last edited by =DK=; 10-28-2011 at 09:58 AM.
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jorgemg, I went back and had a look at the original conversation, and as it turns out, you were the one that posted about the JazzAmp. Do you have that problem with the JazzAmp too? What else do you have to say about it?
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I believe I now understand what you meant by not having a "tone control" on your amplifier.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Henriksen argues that graphic equalization is not tone control because it does not create as much change in phase angle as a simple RC filter.
That's as much marketing speak as it is an accurate representation of what they provide with their amp...graphic EQ functions as tone control.
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I have a JazzAmp112, and I do modify my settings depending on volume level.
For jazz with a 335 type guitar, these are my initial settings which are sometimes further modified depending on the acoustical and sonic environment:
With the volume at 8:00, all the tone controls are flat.
With the volume at 8:30 - 9:00 - which is most of the time because I tend to play in a duo most often - I cut the 100 and 300 Hz controls slightly and boost the 3 kHz control very slightly.
If the volume needs to go up to 10:00 - 11:00, I cut the 300 Hz control a bit more and the 100 Hz control even more.
I've only had the volume on 12:00 once to see if it stayed clean; it did, but it was too loud.
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Henriksen has good amps and excellent marketing. The amp is a little boomy and quite trebly for different reasons I think. First the voicing of the amp makes it boomy in the last strings, you can dial it out with the EQ usually, but its a dark amp on the last strings (in order to work with 7-string guitars and double bass I guess...). The treble part I guess is also related with the amp voicing (which I think doesn't go very high) - the highs tend to sound like "high mids" to my ears... and here the problem is the EQ doesn't help solving this issue - the 3k and 10k pots are useless, not sure why. The 3k pot should help on that, don't know if the Q is not large enough... Its the main problem with the amp I think (solution: EQ pedal).
The stock speaker is not very good also, at least for my taste - an EV improved the amp greatly! (but adds 200€ to the bill and 4kgs to the weight...). I might try a Tornado in there if I don't sell it.
Other cons: its expensive for what it does; reverb is beyond terrible and not usable on any gig imo (I need reverb all the time and this means I would have to take a reverb pedal for a small restaurant gig for example); poor design (solved with a regular grill cloth);
Its a good sounding amp. It would be killer in the 600€ range with good treble controls, decent reverb and decent looks (I would pay extra for an EV in there but that's me). Of course I got a jazzmaster ultralight some months ago and that's the real deal for me... Oh and on the Henriksen the volume is very linear which is good and the amp tends to sound quite similar at all volumes, its very good on that! (I also sort of found the sweet spot on that amp so I almost never changed the settings)
cjm: I totally agree with you - thats marketing and to me Henriksen has tone controls - no matter what they say. I think my jazzmaster ultralight has active controls and a big Q I think and I can dial the picky sound of the first two strings...
Any more opinions on sweet sound at high volumes?Last edited by jorgemg1984; 10-28-2011 at 05:31 PM.
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Like DK, and the others say, get the Henriksen JazzAmp, your problems will be solved. The REAL deal. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Red the thread, I have one... its much better than other amps on that aspect but has several issues that I don't like... My jazzmaster ultralight is not as good on having the same tone at all volumes but its much better than the Henriksen on the issues I mentioned!
I have other amps I like but they do change too much with the volume pot! I will ask my tech about this but meanwhile I would like to know your opinions
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I must be missing something here, but as I read the description of the problem, it appears that at "bedroom" practice volumes, the amp sounds fine.
But when it is turned up to gigging levels, it sounds at once:
1. Too much bass (boomy).
2. Too much treble (thin).
3. The treble sounds "high mid."
I'm not understanding this -- because the way I define tone to myself -- these things are almost mutually exclusive.
But as a guess, and as a starting point, I would strive for a good sound at gigging volume and not worry about tone quality for quiet practice sessions.
To be rid of the "boomy" sound, I'd try running the guitar tone pot full treble (as I've suggested before) and turn down the bass on the amp's EQ.
Then I'd turn down the amp's treble EQ to tame the high end, and then I would increase the mids.
If that doesn't do the trick, I'd next look for something not related to tone control on either the amp or the guitar: I would experiment with overall pickup height (unless it is a suspended pickup that can't be adjusted up and down) and pole piece adjustment.
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Usually when I practice, I practice unamplified. In fact, I don't even have an amp in my bedroom. It's usually in the car or at the front door ready to go. Originally Posted by cjm
Really, the difference here is the difference between rehearsal volume and gig volume. I set it up according to the space I'm playing in.
For instance, tomorrow I'm playing a gig at the local Farmers' Market. It's outside, and I have a Princeton Reverb, so I need to boost the treble for clarity and cut the bass for boominess, and add a bit of reverb for smoothness. It sounds good at a medium-high volume, around 7, but the rest of the band is way louder than they were in rehearsal, so I've got to turn up on the amp.
When I do, it's not balanced anymore. The high strings are either to quiet or they're snappy and unruly, when before they were fine. The low strings either have no definition, or they're boomy. Solving one problem creates another, and with just a Treble control, a a Bass control, and the guitar's tone and volume control, it's difficult.
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This is exactly the point! Any good solutions for this? Originally Posted by =DK=
BTW I also practice unamplified sometimes but it has some problems and it makes you play in a different way.
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Guitar sound result and overall tone of the guitar when played at gigs or rehearsal is very dependent on the room acoustics and the tone interaction with other instruments like for exemple, bass or keyboard.
Also in many occasions, I noticed big changes in tone and sound when playing the usual tunes with exactly the same guitar, amp, effect, room and settings, but that's just me...
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Using a jazzmaster with the Henriksen is not the best amp then. I've run my strat through it and get pretty close to a flat sound. But the best combination is an archtop with the Henriksen. With the humbucker adjsut corectly where all strings are at equal levels set the amp on the middle for every dial. You'll find that this is a very balanced and pleasing sound. For the strat I've done better with a Fender Deluxe settings trebled three, bass two and a half, strat tone on four. Hope that helps.
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