What are the downsides of a Jazz Box?

[oldane]

Originally Posted by cjm

Plywood and set in pickup(s). That is not the ONLY possible solution/answer.....

No, there are other solutions. I remember a story Bob Benedetto told in the Just Jazz Guitar magazine more than 10 years ago. At that time Jack Wilkins was a Bendetto endorser. He played a Bendetto Fratello with a set pickup, but he had feedback problems. He and Bob had tried almost everything to no avail. Then at another visit to Bobs Stroudsberg shop, they finally decided to throw in the towell - literally. Bob went upstairs to the Benedetto familys bathroom and picked a large towell which they managed to sqeeze in little by little through one of the F holes. That did the trick. The story said nothing about the effect on the acoustic properties of the instrument.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by oldane

No, there are other solutions. I remember a story Bob Benedetto told in the Just Jazz Guitar magazine more than 10 years ago. At that time Jack Wilkins was a Bendetto endorser. He played a Bendetto Fratello with a set pickup, but he had feedback problems. He and Bob had tried almost everything to no avail. Then at another visit to Bobs Stroudsberg shop, they finally decided to throw in the towell - literally. Bob went upstairs to the Benedetto familys bathroom and picked a large towell which they managed to sqeeze in little by little through one of the F holes. That did the trick. The story said nothing about the effect on the acoustic properties of the instrument.

Well, yeah, that's why I said plywood is not the only possible solution.

Bob Benedetto's solution was hardly innovative by that time...Guys who insisted on playing Super 400s had been stuffing them full of foam rubber through the f holes since before dirt was invented and the first primitive vertebrates crawled out of the sea...

[oldane]

Originally Posted by cjm

...Guys who insisted on playing Super 400s had been stuffing them full of foam rubber through the f holes since before dirt was invented and the first primitive vertebrates crawled out of the sea...

Oh, I had the idea that the Super400 was introduced as late as 1934, but that may be my memory playing tricks on me ...

BTW, covering the F-holes with tape or plugs is yet another solution.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by oldane

Oh, I had the idea that the Super400 was introduced as late as 1934, but that may be my memory playing tricks on me ...

Don't feel bad...most people don't know that foam filled Super 400s with DeArmond Rhythm Chief pickups are well represented in the fossil record going back many hundreds of millions of years...

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by lukaas

Im primarily hoping a box will be more comfortable for me to play, that the width and size will help me to have better posture(not slouched over )

from the short time ive had playing one this appears to be the case. I will have to spend more time to make sure of this.

As far as the rest of what comes with a jazzbo,I dont know what i dont know, if you will.

So how bad are the feedback issues?

How do the many jazz players who perform with jazzbos do so without sound dramas?

FYI I am a beginner but getting lessons from a teacher weekly, practicing two hours a day atm.

I love playing a jazz box! I owned a 339 and sold it as I could not get used to the tiny body size. Just felt awkward to me. It was a great sounding guitar though!

The feedback issue is over hyped imo. Yes it can happen but it's easily remedied by adjusting your angle or position on stage or in a rehearsal room in most cases.

Go on youtube and you can watch hundreds of videos of guys out there in all kinds of settings playing archtop guitars with no problems. How can they do this if there is supposedly constant howling feedback from archtops from the moment you plug them in?!

Here's a vid I shot of Kenny Burrell playing his Super 400:

YouTube Video

You tell me how an 80 year man can stand 2 feet in front of a Fender Twin all night without a peep of feedback with all of these supposedly out of control feedback problems that archtops cause?

I saw Sonny Rollins a few weeks ago and Peter Bernstein was camped out in front of his Fender Super Reverb all night with his jazz box. Guess what? No feedback!

If you listen to Wes and think man, I wish his guitar would sustain more, than a jazz box is not for you. If however you think to yourself, 'Damn that sounds good!' than pick up a good jazz box as you will never get that kind of tone out of a thinline hollow or semi hollow.

In the end it is all subjective and you need to find the right guitar for you. Good luck and happy hunting!

[Jazzpunk]

Here is a great video of Johnnie Bassett playing his Heritage Golden Eagle (a solid spruce top 17" archtop). For most of the video he is standing a foot away from his amp facing the amp directly. What's that I don't hear? Feedback!

YouTube Video

Anyway, you get the point. Yes it can happen. No it's not going to be a constant problem that will make playing an archtop a horrific, ear shredding experience.

[lpdeluxe]

I've always had feedback problems, even with the heavily braced plywood Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gentleman. Maybe I just turn it up too much.


Personally I find the big body archtop uncomfortable, and that factor, more than the feedback, decided me to trade off my jazzbo. I guess I spent too long (25 years) playing the Country Gent. My 335 is the best guitar for me, but it's not for everyone.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I've always had feedback problems, even with the heavily braced plywood Gretsch Chet Atkins Country Gentleman. Maybe I just turn it up too much.

Must be. What style of jazz do you play and what venues are you guys playing?

Nice 335 by the way!

[lpdeluxe]

We gig with rock and play "jazz" for fun. It's almost exclusively standards like Georgia on my Mind and Fly me to the Moon. I mostly play bass these days, a victim of arthritis coupled with an oversupply of guitarists (unspoken qualification: 'better than me'). This year I have acquired a lady companion who, although only a few years younger than me (and dirt, of course) has taken up percussion seriously enough to sit in with the local jazz group that plays Friday evenings on the patio at the local hotel. Thanks for the compliments on the guitars -- the 335 is my idea of a beautiful instrument, more so than the Gretsch as it doesn't rely on bling but just on graceful lines and nice wood.

[Greco]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

What a spectacular 335 !!

This is the guitar of my dreams....especially with the natural finish.

Cheers

Dave

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

We gig with rock and play "jazz" for fun. It's almost exclusively standards like Georgia on my Mind and Fly me to the Moon. I mostly play bass these days, a victim of arthritis coupled with an oversupply of guitarists (unspoken qualification: 'better than me'). This year I have acquired a lady companion who, although only a few years younger than me (and dirt, of course) has taken up percussion seriously enough to sit in with the local jazz group that plays Friday evenings on the patio at the local hotel. Thanks for the compliments on the guitars -- the 335 is my idea of a beautiful instrument, more so than the Gretsch as it doesn't rely on bling but just on graceful lines and nice wood.

Congrats on finding a lady who shares your love of music. That's always a plus!

[lpdeluxe]

Originally Posted by Greco

What a spectacular 335 !!

This is the guitar of my dreams....especially with the natural finish.

Cheers

Dave

Thanks. I found it on craigslist a couple of years ago for $1750. Having recently sold the Gretsch for $3K, I felt like I could afford it. It plays and sounds as nice as it looks.

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Congrats on finding a lady who shares your love of music. That's always a plus!

It's been a real experience for both of us. She played tambourine when a friend came to visit and prepare for a garden party gig in April, so I signed her up for lessons with a local guy who used to be a first-call Nashville studio drummer. He leads the local hot trio, and she sits in with them when they are playing. It has been a revelation, since I'd never indulged in percussion goodies before: I traded a bass amp for a pair of good congas, and helped her buy a matching set of bongos, and gotten her a cowbell, afuche cabasa, Rhythm Tech tambourine, a guiro, and most recently a washboard (we're veering into Jambalaya territory with our group). She has a killer sense of what to play.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by cjm

Don't feel bad...most people don't know that foam filled Super 400s with DeArmond Rhythm Chief pickups are well represented in the fossil record going back many hundreds of millions of years...

Hmm. That fuels new and surrealistic thoughts. Since there were no vertebrates on dry land back then, those millions years old Super400s must have been made underwater by sea animals - early primitive sharks with an appropriate set of teeth perhaps? That could be an idea for cost reducing production methods for the guitar industry. Put some raw slabs of ebony, spruce and maple togethere with some hardware into a pool with those creatures, feed them well, and a week later you can pick up finished guitars that only needs to be hung up to dry. But maybe the woodchewing shark species is extinct by now?

[cjm]

Originally Posted by oldane

...But maybe the woodchewing shark species is extinct by now?

Megaluthier.

[Retroman1969]

At one time I would have cited "Less Versatility" as a downside of the full hollowbody archtops, but this crazy kid is changing my stance on that.
1963 Gibson ES-175 DN 00473 - YouTube

1956 Gibson ES-175 DN 00989 - YouTube

[fasteddie]

The biggest downside for me is where I start playing my Heritage Golden Eagle at 9:00 PM. After I think I've only been playing for an hour or so, I look at the clock & its 1:30 AM. Then realize the alarm to get up for work is going to go off at 5:00 AM. Makes for a rough next day.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Retroman1969

At one time I would have cited "Less Versatility" as a downside of the full hollowbody archtops, but this crazy kid is changing my stance on that.
1963 Gibson ES-175 DN 00473 - YouTube

1956 Gibson ES-175 DN 00989 - YouTube

Oh dear! Are we seeing a severe case of ADHD in those clips?

Of course they have strung the guitars with a plain G string despite the wooden bridge is compensating for a wound G .....

Apart from that, a 175D is in fact pretty versatile, though I would choose other guitars for that kind of music. I could be tempted to buy any of the two guitars myself, provided the frantic guy wasn't a part of the package.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Retroman1969

At one time I would have cited "Less Versatility" as a downside of the full hollowbody archtops, but this crazy kid is changing my stance on that.
1963 Gibson ES-175 DN 00473 - YouTube

1956 Gibson ES-175 DN 00989 - YouTube

Well. That was somewhat disturbing, wasn't it?

I've never really bought into the versatility argument...as in "The Gibfender ES-Telepaul is the more versatile guitar because you can use it for both jazz and rock."

Maybe that one model of guitar...but not that one guitar. I've heard lots of good jazz tones from Telecasters and ES-335 type guitars for example -- but not when they were set up to the satisfaction of any rock or blues players that I know personally...they might sound okay if the guy is a great player, but to my ears the "jazz sound" suffered from the rock setup.

I don't know anyone personally who tried (or tries) to play rock or blues on a guitar that is set up the way I would want it for jazz -- and I freely admit I don't know what is needed for rock or blues because I'm not interested in rock or blues -- but I must assume the requirements are different than for a jazz guitar, because the set up I've encountered is never anything even remotely like I'd expect of a jazz guitar.

So if you're going to play both jazz and rock, and you select a guitar on the basis of versatility, you are forced to buy two of them anyway, or plan on sounding like crap in one or the other or both genres.

And that being the case, there is no particular reason to avoid a type of guitar on the basis of its supposed lack of versatility.

(ON EDIT: I see that Oldane beat me to it, to say what needed to be said.)

[jorgemg1984]

Yes one of the problems of wanting a versatile guitar is the setup... if you can do okay jazz with 011 rounds then you might have a versatile guitar.

[Retroman1969]

[quote=cjm;177139]
there is no particular reason to avoid a type of guitar on the basis of its supposed lack of versatility.
---------------------------------------------------------


Well, that was my main point. I didn't say you wouldn't have to tweak it. And I didn't say that if I was looking for a rock guitar this would be my first choice.
People keep talking about the incredible versatility of the Telecaster, but you have the same issues with proper setup. Therefore, the idea that one is more or less versatile than the other is arguable at best.

I just put up the crazy rock vids to counter some suggestions in this thread to the contrary.

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Retroman1969

I just put up the crazy rock vids to counter some suggestions in this thread to the contrary.

Well, you could have warned us by saying something like "This video contains sexual content not suitable for all viewers."

Which brings up another question, though: What is the proper way to wash an archtop guitar?

[Retroman1969]

LOL!
My bad!

[lpdeluxe]

I long ago gave up on versatility. I discovered that a "versatile" instrument didn't have enough personality to inspire me to play it. The best example I have experienced was when I played in a dance hall band on bass. We did a wide variety of material, including Motown, country, classic rock and the occasional Santana or jazz standard. I got a G&L Tribute L2000 and soon learned to get a pseudo-Jazz Bass sound, a pseudo-Precision sound, a pseudo-Stingray sound and I was pseudo-happy with it.

But one day I brought a Fender Precision to rehearsal. Two bars into the first song, and the guys in the band all turned around and said, "THAT'S IT!" Later I traded the G&L for a fretless Jazz, which I took to the next gig. The band sent me home to get the P!

"Versatility" caters to our ability to mimic, not to our artistic self-expression, if that's not too lofty a term for what we do.

So now my Les Paul is gone, my SG w/Bigsby is gone, and only the 335 remains. It feels good, sounds good, and looks good. I can walk into GC to buy a set of strings, get them and walk out again without looking at another instrument.

[lukaas]

My teacher told me the answer is to practice more....


hmmm.....

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by lukaas

My teacher told me the answer is to practice more....


hmmm.....

How will that help you if the size of the 339 is causing you discomfort? Maybe you are talking about your yoga teacher?

[oldane]

Originally Posted by lpdeluxe

I long ago gave up on versatility.

Me too. For example, I have different instruments for acoustic and for amplifed playing - with different set ups. As for the acoustic archtops, I have two set up for 4-to-the-bar rhythm playing and one set up for more soloistic playing.

If I absolutely had to choose the most versatile guitar I could think of, it would be a Strat with a blocked tremolo and 11-50 roundwound nickel/steel strings.

[Funster]

I agree with the others. The downside of the big jazz box is early feedback. Not a problem at moderate volumes to the side of the amp. The ES-339 never did it for me as it seems out of proportion (too acclamated to the ES-335 shape I guess). How about something like the Gibson ES-337 with the center post down the middle to reduce feedback?

[cjm]

Originally Posted by Funster

I agree with the others. The downside of the big jazz box is early feedback. Not a problem at moderate volumes to the side of the amp. The ES-339 never did it for me as it seems out of proportion (too acclamated to the ES-335 shape I guess). How about something like the Gibson ES-337 with the center post down the middle to reduce feedback?

How about not playing so loud, and letting the club patrons choose? Those who come to hear jazz will select tables near the bandstand. Those who are there for the "ambiance," but not really the music except as a privacy screen for personal conversation, can find seating a bit further away.

Then you don't need a guitar with a center block.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

A jazz box is pretty much a one trick pony. A magic pony.

My personal favorite. Nice, gumbo!