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I have a Gibson les Paul and love it. I have loved gibsons for as long as I remember. My first love and my favorite ever since. However I have lately beennlooking at their sister company epiphone. Never owned one but like the way they Look and from what I have heard they sound pretty good. They are a he'll of alot less expensive too.
My question for those that have owned or played both a gibson and epiphone is it really worth the extra $600 to $800 and why or why not.
say for instance an epiphone Lucile vs a Gibson Lucile or epiphone dot or sheraton Vs a Gibson es335.
Thanks
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06-13-2011 06:46 PM
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I owned, successively, an Epiphone Sheraton II and a Gibson ES-335. I rewired the Epi with Seymour Duncan pickups and upgraded electronics, and it was forever a wannabe guitar. Looked great, played really well, but never had a good sound. At first glance it was attractive, but there were flaws in the wood, lots of filler around the inlays, and the faux-gold hardware was already looking tacky.
The 335, which I got a couple of months later, was flawless: lightly figured wood, plain but clean inlays, better playability and a great sound. I read a lot of posts where people claim that Epis are "better" than Gibsons, but that may only be the case on their particular planet. I had about $300 invested in the Sheraton, and it wasn't worth it. I paid $1750 for the Gibson, and it was a bargain. It is now, after 40+ years of playing, my only electric guitar, and my last one.
I wouldn't even look at an Epiphone at this point. I've bonded with the 335 to an extent that I've never experienced before. So I guess my answer is, "yes: the Gibson is worth the extra money."
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And this is where it starts to get a bit complicated. "Epiphone" means lots of different things. I have played them all. Here's my personal take:
- independent company up until the later 1950's, making stuff as good as Gibson, then acquired by Gibson.
Thereafter:
- making Gibson-like guitars in Kalamazoo until 1968 - identical quality
- making sort-of-Gibson-like guitars in Japan under license - funky junk, some OK stuff
- making guitars in Korea - cheaper but some OK stuff, not the same quality
- making guitars in China - cheaper and not as good
- Epiphone Elitist sub-brand made in Japan - just as good
Heh, this should be good.....
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Epi Elitist or The Heritage...
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So you think the Epiphone Elitist are just as good as Gibson?
Originally Posted by Hammertone
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I never understood gear junkies. Sure, I know the Gibson is a better guitar, but I also know I don't sound any better on an expensive Gibson than I do on a cheaper Epiphone. It's all in the fingers.
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Depends, of course. Originally Posted by Conman
In the world of solid-body and semi guitars, as good as many Gibson USA guitars I've played in the past, and not as good as some of them - very consistent Elitist QC compared to a wider QC range for Gibson USA. I netted out on big necks a few years back, so the Gibsons I play these days are mostly big-neck Custom Shop guitars, and IMO the Elitists are not as good as those.Last edited by Hammertone; 03-21-2017 at 05:48 AM.
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I think it depends on what you want for the money. I have had a Gibson ES-175, Epiphone Dot and Epiphone Joe Pass. I never bonded with the ES-175 which I bought in college, maybe because I was young and inexperienced with setting it up, also lousy amp, etc., so I sold it a few years later.
I got my Joe Pass (Korean Samick, 1999) about 4 years ago and it was exactly what I was looking for, for about a fifth of the going price for an ES-175 now.
I wish I hadn't sold the ES-175, but the Epi JP plays great and does everything I want in a jazz guitar.
The Dot was a pretty good guitar for what it does, and I could not convince myself that the ES-335 was 4-5 times as good. It wasn't the jazz guitar for me, so I sold it as well.
The fit and finish and appearance of both of the Epi guitars was awesome, BTW.
I also have an Epi Valve Junior 5w tube amp which I love to death--great living room amp. Best $100 I ever spent for guitar equipment.
Bottom line: I would not argue that there are not some Epi dogs out there--Chinese consistency reportedly leave a bit to be desired. Nor would I argue that an Epi is every bit as good as a Gibson. But for a non-professional, $4-500 for a decent, highly playable guitar vs. $2500+ for a Gibson--well, I have a lot of other places to spend my money, including more guitar stuff...
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I have to agree whole heartily with Kman, it IS in the fingers.
Also, in the 60’s and 70’s Gibson had a stellar reputation. Their quality and craftsmanship carried on throughout the line. In 1961, the ES350-T I bought at Sam Ash in Park Place, Brooklyn was exactly the same as the one I played at Manny’s Music in Manhattan, NY.
In 1992, I went to every music store in NY, NJ, and Conn. and played over 10 Byrdlands before finally settling on one. Each had fit and finish problems, neck settings (truss and fret install), and for one reason or another, different “Playability.”
In 2004, I bought a Joe Pass, had it heavily modified, and would put it up against MOST, NEW Gibsons. – Trouble is… young brand-o-philes see the Epiphone coming out of the case and immediately ask, “Where’s your Gibsons?”
But to paraphrase Kman: buying a pair of Air-Jordans, do not make you play basketball like Michael.
(A fellow with a violin under his arm asks a stranger on 57th Street in Manhattan)
“Excuse me, do you know how I can get to Carnage Hall?”
(The stranger replies)
“Yes. Practice, practice, practice.”
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The Epiphone Elitist models are top notch. I even saw a quip about them written by Steve Laury, a jazz guitarist who owns and plays Gibsons all of the time. He states that the Elitist series guitars are pretty nice. However, the quality of the guitar is in the hands of the beholder. I play what feels and sounds good "to me" regardless of what the brand is.
Last edited by yamahaguitark; 06-14-2011 at 02:30 AM.
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I don't disagree with anyone here, but my experience with Epiphone (and I've had three, mostly because they were inexpensive and I was putting kids through college) is that they are not up to par. None of them sounded special at all (and I seriously tried to make the Sheraton better, as anyone who has rewired one of those rascals will understand). I have also had three Gibsons, and each one has been far above any of the Epiphones. I don't think I'm anal about guitars, but I haven't picked up an Epiphone that could compare on any level to my 335, and I consider it to have my "signature" sound. Maybe I was just unlucky with Epiphones and unusually lucky with Gibsons, but that's my take on it.
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For me, it's all about the quality of the instrument itself. Is the neck going to remain stable and will the truss rod continue to do it's job? Are the pickups going to be stable? Is the wiring flimsy, are the solder joints solid, is the guitar economically repairable? More expensive doesn't necessarily mean better qality either.
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I have a '74 335 I've had since 1981. The 70's Gibsons are suppose to be crappy years but obviously I like it.
I've seen Heritage H535's priced at $1200'ish which seems like a steal & is probably closer to a 'Gibson' than a Epiphone if consider the lineage. Then again you could buy an Epi dot used, $250'ish & if you don't like it you'd only lose $50-100 or so if didn't like it & you wanted to sell it quick to get a Gibson.
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I have owned both of these guitars. I had an epi sheraton, and got rid of it and now i own a es 335. The 335 was a big waste of money in my opinion and i would do anything to have my sheraton back. Altho, for the money that i paid for the gibson, i wouldnt get rid of the 335 due to what its worth in comparison to the epiphone. Originally Posted by Conman
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Thanks for all the replies guys I appreciate it. After taking I what you guys wrote then listening and comparing the guitars I have a much better idea of the two types of guitars. I think the epiphone guitarssound muted when compared to the Gibson. However when I hear the Sheraton I like the sound of the Gibson 335 a little better better but it is very close and the 335 is not at all worth so much more money. However the sheraton is with out a doubt worth the extra money over a dot. So if I ever get any of the ones discussed it would be the Sheraton.
Thanks again!
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Yes the Elitist is as good as a Gibson. I tried a Broadway Elitist (which is now discontinued) and it beats any ES-175. Much nicer feel, sound and setup. The spruce top also made a difference. I think it was a formed top, not a carved one at that price ($2000 ca). I wish I had purchased it at the time: Originally Posted by Conman
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I must add; it’s not just about being a “Headstock Whore.” Because I own a ’61 ES350-T and a ’92 Byrdland (23.5 scale) I purchased an Epiphone Byrdland. All the work that went into that guitar not withstanding, I was never happy with the Epiphone Elitist Byrdland; I sold it.
About a month or two ago, this fellow had one and I asked if I could play it. He played my Byrdland while I marveled over his “As purchased and delivered” guitar.
A lesson relearned: These days, because of quality control (or lack of) it behooves a guitarist to play as many examples of the same guitar before settling on one… This has become a problem with purchasing online rather than brick and mortar stores.
Guitars; cars; hell, damn near anything; you have to do the legwork.
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I think you will find more consistent products coming from Asia (consistently good or consistently bad is a matter of opinion) than from Gibson.
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i've been playing Gibson guitars or Epiphones for 15 yrs (going on) now and I would say that it's worth the extra money to buy the real deal but not so much that if you cannot afford to wait to save... Epi's are far less reliable then Gibsons are and the variation on quality is substantially less.
You can certainly find Epiphone guitars that are great working instruments, sound good, play well and will last you. Especially if you're looking for a Guitar that you will travel with, take to the cottage or the grandparents, something you leave in a practice studio then they're perfect. But there is a substantial difference I found when I started to play real gibsons.
I've owned 3 vintage Gibson guitars ('72 325 58' 225 and '63 J45) and am down to one (225), and 2 relatively new Gibsons (02' 335 my main guitar and a brand new Les Paul Custom). My first Epi was a Sheraton II which was fantastic for me which I made the huge mistake of trading in for an Epi Broadway which was terrible to say the least.
I would say that the Herritage guitars are something that I would look into probably before getting a Gibson also, those are fine guitars.
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Originally Posted by SamBooka
I've owned three Gibsons and three Epiphones. None of the Epis were much more than what my old uncle used to call "tradin' stock." Each one of the Gibsons was a gem, and clearly superior to any of the Epiphones. Others may have had different experience, but I speak as an owner and a player. I'll never buy another Epiphone, no matter how much bling. My 335 is it, for life.
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Please reread my statment Originally Posted by lpdeluxe
I've owned three Gibsons and three Epiphones. None of the Epis were much more than what my old uncle used to call "tradin' stock." Each one of the Gibsons was a gem, and clearly superior to any of the Epiphones. Others may have had different experience, but I speak as an owner and a player. I'll never buy another Epiphone, no matter how much bling. My 335 is it, for life.
Before buying my Emp Reg I played many Gibsons and Epiphones. Epiphones were far more consistent.. not necesarily better (not going there) just more consistent.
Would I buy a new Gibson? Yes. Would I buy one mailorder? Never, since you never know what you will get. I am more comfortable buying an Epi online since I know it will be quite similar to what will be haning on the wall down the street.
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I bought my Sheraton II back in '94 (used, probably a MIK). In the course of the years it has been upgraded with Seymour Duncan '59s, better pots and it needed a new jack-input, because the original one had gone lame. Now it needs a new switch, because the old one is giving up.
First of all, the Sheraton is construction-wise rather different from the Gibson, because of it's all maple construction and laminated 5-piece neck. Secondly, the Duncans are not the best match to the bright sound of the maple and their scooped mids made the guitar difficult to hear on stage: hard to cut through the mix when turned down and getting shrill and hollow when you turned up the volume and/or tone. I 'downgraded' the neck pickup to a Golden Age humbucker (from StewMac) and that brought back some 'brown sound' to it. The Sheraton actually needs a very dark sounding pickup. I still own my Sheraton (it looks as beautifull as it ever did!) but sadly she sits in her case most of the time.
I bought my Gibson ES-333 two years a go, because I always had difficulties dialing in the tone I heared in my mind with the Sheraton. The ES-333 sounded exactly like what I had in mind and does so on almost all amps and in all situations (could it be psychology?). The ES-333 already had Classic 57s installed by the previous owner. In all the situations I have used it, it outclasses the Sheraton I think in terms of sound and reacting to my playing and adjustments of the controls.
Mind you, I agree to that sound is in the fingers, but as one's playing develops, so does your 'mental sound expectation' and your feel for the nuances of an instrument. That's probably all mental too, and I doubt if I sound any different on my Sheraton then on my ES-333 for the listener. To me the ES-333 is the better guitar, it's more alive, resonates better, feels better and sounds better to me: just transfers the sounds in my mind better into the sounds that come out of my amp. But in the early stages of my musical development, the Sheraton was invaluable and I couldn't afford a Gibson as a student, because that cost the equivalent of a year's worth of study-allowance.... (that every student still is paid by the dutch government ;-).
The ES-333 is relatively cheap (for a Gibson), it was 2 times what I payed for the Sheraton (1,100 euros vs 500 euros, a Sheraton cost a little more back then). I find it better, but how much better is not an exact science and I am not able to judge if it would mathemattically be 2 times better so the cost are justified... I guess that would differ from individual to individual, so all there's left for guitar manufacturers is to let supply and demand dictate their asking prices....
My 2 cts! ;-)Last edited by Little Jay; 07-18-2011 at 04:12 PM.
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The Elitist Epiphones can be very good, just as good as Gibson. I was lucky enough to find a "Lacquer Taste LTD" Epiphone Les Paul. Same quality as the Elitist, only made strictly for the Japanese market. None were exported to the US. Mine was made at the Fujigen factory (as many Elitists are), where so many high-quality Orville/OBG guitars were made, and probably came in as luggage.
Anyway, it's a fine one. For less than half the price it would cost to get a used example of equivalent Gibson LP, which no doubt would be "weight-relieved."
Not all Epis are created equal.
MD
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I love Gibsons. They're built by hand and it feels like quality. That being said, the ones I played (before I went 7 string) were Epiphones. An old Casino, as good as any Gibson and built to the same level of quality. A Les Paul Elite Semi Hollow with a re-contoured neck and Duncan PUps, a dream to play. A Zephyr Regent, like a single PU ES-175 (or what they renamed the ES-165) also recontoured neck profile and Duncan Pickup.
The Epi's are serious professional tools for me. They are a part of my music. They feel great. They are built well. They saved me a lot of money.
Would I buy a Gibson over them? Not until I had so much money that a few grand wouldn't matter.
Asian guitars have places where corners are cut. Poly Finish, Electronics, cheaper hardware. They tend to have overbuilt necks. I reshape the necks, put in good pickups and for my hands, it's a custom setup that fits like a glove, sounds like a million and is not like any other in any production line.
As I said, I admire the sheer craft of a good Gibson. When I play, I need the instrument to disappear and leave me to making the music. When that happens, the label/headstock/mystique disppears too. My Epis are perfect for me.
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Hi - hope this little story helps.
I recently bought a Chinese knockoff BB King Gibbo (the plan was to put it above the fireplace in my music room as decoration).
I have a luthier friend who was doing some work on a 40 year old Japanese L-5 copy (Ventura), so when delivered it to him I over took down the BB for him to take a squizz at.
Upshot - the neck was beautiful and straight and the body was maple (big surprise).
Next we plugged it in to a little blues junior and it blew a valve (ouch!). Cut a long story short - electronics were crap - so he rewired the whole thing (doing away with he the stereo/varitone) with proper gibson stuff - replaced tone pots and put a pair of '57 classics in her and she sings like a bird. When he was finished he couldn't tell the difference between it and his 335 original (except maybe the 335 is a touch warmer) - and he did try - said he played it for 2 days straight cause he thought he was going mad.
So I guess the moral is - yep the Gibbos are great, but if you get an Epi, or a knockoff, and it feels good in your hands, you might be able to change the electronics and the pickups and take the family away for a few days on the difference.
Cheers
Lee
Ventura L-5 (1970)
Gibson Les Paul Studio 1950's Goldtop reissue
Fender 2008 Classic 50's Player Strat (Custom Shop Designed)
Gibson BB King jewel (ruby) - made in China
Washburn d46s
Martin D-28
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