dog eared P90 in a humbucker cavity

[Ivan]

Hi to all jazz cats and gear guru!

Merry Christmas to all of you!


Would you, please, help me with some issues about the dog eared p90 installation.

I've got an old (1967), but wonderful Gibson ES 330.

The previous owner equipped it with 2 standard full-sized humbuckers.

The places of the holes where the screws for dog eared P90 were are still visible (little dents present). The holes were obviously filled in with some kind of stuff and after that the top of the guitar was refinished, i guess).

What do you think, brothers, if it possible to place dog eared P90s there?

Do I need to do any other modificaton except re-drilling the holes for the screws?
Are cavities for humbuckers are too big for dog eared P90? or maybe they are too small and I'll have to make some additional woodwork?

Any other issues i don't know about?

Best regards,
and thanks in advance,
Merry Christmas,
Ivan.

[oldane]

Personally, I would avoid doing more butchery than has already been done. I would insted get two of those P90s in humbucker shape, which can be dropped right into the existing humbucker rings (well there is some disassembly and soldering to do, but that applies to dogeared P90s as well. Many manufacturers make exellent P90s in humbucker disguise. I have good experience with Pete Biltoft (Vintage Vibe), but there are many other fine PU winders. Jason Lollar also has a very fine reputation. Some people here on this forum have asked for recommendations for cheaper PUs. Though the most expensive PU need not be the best, I would never aim to save on PUs. One can keep a good PU for decades, whereas chances are that a mediocre PU bought to save money will be replaced sooner or later (likely sooner than later). And even good PUs are really not THAT expensive.

BTW, if the guitar is from 1967, it was NOT born with P90s. 1967 was humbucker age, and Gibson didn't even think about P90s at that time, though they reissued them many years later. So if a guitar from 1967 has had P90s on it, it must have been a retrofit, which has been brought back to original humbucker state later. So put on P90s for the sake of their sound (which I can understand as I myself like single coil PUs better than humbuckers) - but they are not original on a 1967 instrument.

[SamBooka]

I think it was born with p90s.

Google anyone?

[Ivan]

oldane, thank you for your reply!
yea, you're right, the butchery should be stopped!

BTW, I like P90s sound too, but actually I like Burny Kessel's sound.
Should I install Pete Biltoft's CCs in a humbucker size?
Do they hum as a usual single coil?

[SamBooka]

Ivan.. do you have pics of the body without the pickup installed?

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Ivan.. do you have pics of the body without the pickup installed?

SamBooka, no pics of the body right now, but the guitar have only one humbucker installed (neck) at the moment, so I can make pics of the other one cavity, is it ok? Nevertheless, I can uninstall the neck pickup too! Later today.

[SamBooka]

Ok. There ARE things you can do that dont look horrible.
As Oldane mentioned the P90 in HB form factor is probably your best bet but if you have a 60s Gibson it may be worth spending a little extra to get it close to original.

BTW.. what do you not like about the HBs?

[Ivan]

[SamBooka]

Ok.. not so bad.. If you want to redrill the holes for the dog ears you can get slightly oversized shims for the pickups. They will be the same shape as the dog ear but just a little larger and black. I bought mine from Lollar but there are others who sell them now.

I would beg/borrow/steal a p90 cover first and fit it over the ho to see what you will be getting in to.

Again, a 60s 330 is probably worth putting a little extra in to get it up to code.

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Ok. There ARE things you can do that dont look horrible.
As Oldane mentioned the P90 in HB form factor is probably your best bet but if you have a 60s Gibson it may be worth spending a little extra to get it close to original.

BTW.. what do you not like about the HBs?

Articulation and tone.
HB are too ceremonious , too serious to my taste, while singles are fresh, airy, funny and ...young, so to speak.

here are my awful pics sorry, i'm not a photographer and I didn't undertake the uninstallation of the other pickup because of late night here in snowy Russia

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Ok.. not so bad.. If you want to redrill the holes for the dog ears you can get slightly oversized shims for the pickups. They will be the same shape as the dog ear but just a little larger and black. I bought mine from Lollar but there are others who sell them now.

I would beg/borrow/steal a p90 cover first and fit it over the ho to see what you will be getting in to.

Again, a 60s 330 is probably worth putting a little extra in to get it up to code.

SamBooka, thank you very much for your help. I think it's possible to get the cover somehow

[SamBooka]

Guitar Parts Resource: Pickup Spacers
I would check the width.

Do you know what you want to put in for p90s?

I have dealt with Lollar several times and they were always very helpful (not all custom winders are). Lollar built a big chunk of his reputation on hip P90.

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Guitar Parts Resource: Pickup Spacers
I would check the width.

Nice link, thank you! Definitely I'll have to purchase those things.

Originally Posted by SamBooka

Do you know what you want to put in for p90s?
I have dealt with Lollar several times and they were always very helpful (not all custom winders are). Lollar built a big chunk of his reputation on hip P90.

I'm still thinking. I like Vintage Vibe options (two sets of magnets (alnico II, III, V, ceramic8) and different spases between poles for neck and bridge).
Looks like I should check what Lollar's toys are too Thanks for your advice.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Ivan

oldane, thank you for your reply!
yea, you're right, the butchery should be stopped!

BTW, I like P90s sound too, but actually I like Burny Kessel's sound.
Should I install Pete Biltoft's CCs in a humbucker size?
Do they hum as a usual single coil?

I have Pete Biltofts HCC with Alnico II magnets in a solid body, which is well shielded with copper foil, so it doesn't hum badly. In fact it hums less than my Gibson 175 did with PAFs. The HCC sound is not an exact copy of the original Charlie Christian PU. However, the sound is more spread (less midrange bias) than a P90, while still retaining single coil clarity. It doesn't quite have the punch of the original CC, but maby a swap to Alnico V magnets would do that trick (Pete supplies an extra set of magnets with the PU and I have the Alnico V's lying around)). The separation of the tones in chords is exceptionally good - far better than a humbucker, which can tend to be a bit muddy in the bass. I'm very pleased with Pete's HCC. But a lot of other factors affect the sound too. For example the bridge. I have experienced that two seemingly identical ebony bridge saddles can sound audibly different.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

I think it was born with p90s.

Google anyone?

Not Google, but a lookup in Gruhns "Vintage Guitars" shows, that I jumped to conclusions too fast. The 330 TD did in fact have P90s through the 1960s.

[Ivan]

"There is also a shim that is "oversized" for use when you are installing a dogear style pickup into a guitar that has been routed for a humbucker sized pickup. It spans the extra width of the humbucker route, and adds an extra distance of 3/32" all the way around. It's cut out of 1/32" thick material and it hides any trace of the original humbucker mounting."
Lollar '50s Wind P-90 Dog Ear Pickup
looks like troubles are not so big SamBooka, thank you again!

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by oldane

I have Pete Biltofts HCC with Alnico II magnets in a solid body, which is well shielded with copper foil, so it doesn't hum badly. In fact it hums less than my Gibson 175 did with PAFs. The HCC sound is not an exact copy of the original Charlie Christian PU. However, the sound is more spread (less midrange bias) than a P90, while still retaining single coil clarity. It doesn't quite have the punch of the original CC, but maby a swap to Alnico V magnets would do that trick (Pete supplies an extra set of magnets with the PU and I have the Alnico V's lying around)). The separation of the tones in chords is exceptionally good - far better than a humbucker, which can tend to be a bit muddy in the bass. I'm very pleased with Pete's HCC. But a lot of other factors affect the sound too. For example the bridge. I have experienced that two seemingly identical ebony bridge saddles can sound audibly different.

oldane, you're tearing me apart I want HCC too

[mongrel]

Originally Posted by Ivan

oldane, you're tearing me apart I want HCC too

I have the HCC's in an Epiphone Joe Pass and have tried the alnico II and alnico V magnets. Selected individually, there is hum that is the equivalent of the most well shielded Strat with standard Strat single coils I've ever played. Not too bad unless you are playing through very high gain. The HCC's are hum-cancelling when both pickups are selected and I find that in that middle position, I can mellow the tone to mimmic the neck, only, by turning the bridge's volume almost all the way down. Of course, I just snipped the Epi pickups out and spliced the HCC's in so I am still running through the marginal standard Korean Epi pots and switches provided in 2006 from the Saein plant in Inchon. Now I also have an Epi Dot from the Samick plant that has good pots and switches and I put a Duncan Phat Cat-- a humbucker sized P-90 style pickup-- in the neck. The dot is a semi-hollow and very similar to the ES 330 except for the center block. I like the neck Phat Cat in the Dot better than the HCC in the Joe Pass but will probably end up trying the HCC in the Dot. Although nothing beats the Gibson P-90's that were installed in your guitar when it left the factory, the HCC's are relatively cheap compared to a set of real '67 Gibson P-90's. If you order one or more, I would recommend ordering sets of all the magnets the owner makes, even though you have your choice of what you want installed and you get an extra set for the price. I chose the II's installed and V's as the extra set. I would like to try the III's and some have praised the VIII ceramics for jazz playing although I am not partial to ceramic magnets that I have tried albeit only in humbuckers.

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Ivan

oldane, you're tearing me apart I want HCC too

Why not get both and see what you like best? If you cut and splice the leads, as you write, it's easy to swap them.

Maybe I should add, that the HCC - probably due to its excellent tone separation - is also very sensitive to where your pick - more than a P90. With my HCC equipped (neck position) one-PU solid body, I can have a sweet and very clear tone, yet with an edge but no shrillness at all, when picked over the pickup, perfect for jazz. When I pick a little further down towards the bridge (like midways between the neck and mid PU on a Strat), I get a quacky tone (like a Strat with the neck and mid PU engaged). Near the bridge the tone gets harder like typical rock and roll. It also reacts audibly to very small changes in tone settings. Thus, although this guitar has only one PU in the neck position, and although it was meant for jazz only, it turned out to have a lot of tonal options, and paired with a multieffects unit or stomp boxes and a good amp, there really isn't much that can't be done with that one PU. With the treble turned up more than I have for jazz playng and with a tad of delay, I can get a bell like and almost three dimensional steel guitar sound when played through my Evans JE200 amp. I have yet to hear the HCC through a classic blackface Fender tube amp, but I figure it must sound really great. BTW, you can have Pete deliver the HCC with the "CC" look or with a more conventional cover.

So - as you can see - I like Pete's HHC a lot. He's also a nice person to deal with, very helpful in assisting you in your choice and in mounting the PU. He also has the business part in check. He answers inquries fast and delivers at the agreed schedule and price.

I have no personal experience with Jason Lollar, but he too gets top reviews, so I don't think you can go wrong with his PUs either.

You have a two PU guitar. Many chooses a HCC for the neck PU and a P90 for the bridge PU, so that's also an option. Pete can deliver them with matching covers.

I have already posted a picture of the guitar a couple of times, so I won't repeat myself once more, but if you like you can see the HCC on it here: Warmoth "Ideosyncaster" picture by oldane - Photobucket

[Ivan]

mongrel, oldane, thank you for your info, fellas.
Since I read your posts I played a lot (the picking hand is quit exhausted , I was trying to figure out what I need most of all and why Seth Lover (SD SH-55, now installed) isn't good enough. Actually SH-55 is brilliant, IMO, maybe I should pick a little harder sometime and fiddle more with tone and volume control...so why bothering? Should I save time for practising?

and yes, Pete (VV) is a nice person, I've get in touch with him already.

oldane, the Ideosyncaster is lovely, very sound idea, imo. Very ergonomic and jazzy at the same time. What is the scale? Do they make narrow (es330ish) necks?

[oldane]

Originally Posted by Ivan

oldane, the Ideosyncaster is lovely, very sound idea, imo. Very ergonomic and jazzy at the same time. What is the scale? Do they make narrow (es330ish) necks?

I pot it together myself (hence my nickname for it - "ideosyncaster") from parts from Warmoth (custom made neck, body and hardware except the tuners which I had already). Pete Biltoft assembled the pickguard with the PU and controls. Specs are here:

Solid mahogany body and mahogany neck, rosewood fretboard, 25½" scale, 12" fretboard radius, 1 3/4" neck width at nut, Graphtech nut, smaller frets than usual these days, Vintage Vibe HCC pickup (with Alnico II magnets), Grover Rotomatic locking tuners. The chicken head knobs is a tip I picked up from Barney Kessel - their position is very easy to see and feel even in bad light. The neck is laquered by Warmoth (they don't offer warranty on unlaquered mahogany necks). The body was finished by myself with Birchwood Caseys Gunstock Oil (actually a kind of warnish, very easy to apply with a finger). Strung with D'Addario Chromes 12-52. The cavity in the body and the back of the pickguard is shielded with grounded copper foil throughout.

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by oldane

I pot it together myself (hence my nickname for it - "ideosyncaster") from parts from Warmoth (custom made neck, body and hardware except the tuners which I had already). Pete Biltoft assembled the pickguard with the PU and controls. Specs are here:

Solid mahogany body and mahogany neck, rosewood fretboard, 25½" scale, 12" fretboard radius, 1 3/4" neck width at nut, Graphtech nut, smaller frets than usual these days, Vintage Vibe HCC pickup (with Alnico II magnets), Grover Rotomatic locking tuners. The chicken head knobs is a tip I picked up from Barney Kessel - their position is very easy to see and feel even in bad light. The neck is laquered by Warmoth (they don't offer warranty on unlaquered mahogany necks). The body was finished by myself with Birchwood Caseys Gunstock Oil (actually a kind of warnish, very easy to apply with a finger). Strung with D'Addario Chromes 12-52. The cavity in the body and the back of the pickguard is shielded with grounded copper foil throughout.

just WOW! jazz machine! BTW, Are the chicken head knobs from Warmoth too? Always wanted to get them

[Ivan]

have found them!

Rooster Head Knob, Black

[Ivan]

was in a musical store today.
tried an Elitist 1967 Casino with P90s (Epiphone, made in Japan)
was quite disappointed by the emptiness of the sound. No nobleness, really outbred sound to my ears.

[SamBooka]

hmm.. sounds like you might prefere humbuckers??
We never said this would be easy but to be fair I have almost never tried a guitar in a music store and liked it.

The unforunate part of all this is I have a box with .. let me check.. 25 different pickups in it that pile up trying to get the right sound for the right guitar. I could sell them off but that is a personal choice I made years ago lol

[SamBooka]

Ingeneri to the rescue! How do you like the sound? Sometime in 2011 I am going to try it on my herb ellis.

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by SamBooka

hmm.. sounds like you might prefere humbuckers??

maybe maybe

Originally Posted by SamBooka

We never said this would be easy but to be fair I have almost never tried a guitar in a music store and liked it.

very interesting! how do you buy your guiatars? if a guitar doesn't impress me in first 5-10 seconds and after 5-10 minutes my opinion doesn't change I'll never buy that guitar and I never regret that way of buying, cause any time I wanted to sell the instrument it was so easy and fast.

Originally Posted by SamBooka

The unforunate part of all this is I have a box with .. let me check.. 25 different pickups in it that pile up trying to get the right sound for the right guitar. I could sell them off but that is a personal choice I made years ago lol

Have any dog eared P90 for exchange? I have a lovely Seth Lover, bridge, gold cover, in excellent condition. Springs, screws, manual, box are enclosed.

[Ivan]

Originally Posted by ingeneri

As was previously stated, your ES-330 originally came with P-90s. This was the signature guitar of the legendary Grant Green. I'd check out any of his early Blue Note records (Green Street, Grant's First Stand, Standards, etc.) to hear the full potential of this setup.

Thanks a lot for the info. Grant Green's Standards I've now listening are lovely. But the main question is are you sure that those albums you've mentioned were recorded with the ES-330 (P-90s)?
I did really see pics of Grant Green and read some historic info, but every time I search in youtube I always find Grant Green with everything else in hands but no any ES-330 around and why he couldn't borrow any other instruments like D'Aquisto or alike for the recordings?

Originally Posted by ingeneri

An Epi Casino import is not a good basis for comparison for a vintage ES-330 with either the original or Lollar P-90s.

yea, thick layer of laquer, heavy new box, half-alive or half-dead sound

Originally Posted by ingeneri

I did the mod with shims on my Heritage 575 to get a more authentic '50s jazzbox sound. Here's a link to a thread on the Heritage forum with photos and more detailed explanation of the process.

575 with Lollar P-90s Pics - Heritage Owners Club

lovely sound and lovely looking guitar! Thanks for sharing!

BTW, did you have to enlarge cavities?
Thanks in advance!