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  1. #1

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    Our standard for April 2017 will be Ann Ronnel's Willow Weep for Me (1932).

    Background:
    Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals (Willow Weep for Me)

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Another great choice. I'll be in soon, I love this tune.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  4. #3

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    I should wrap up Star Dust this weekend

  5. #4

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    Another good old standard! good job M-Ster!

    wiz (Howie)
    Howie

  6. #5

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    Ragman-- "jaunty." I enjoyed it.

    Hadda grab the Kingpin and throw in a first take too...trying it in F, like Cannonball.



    I've been doing some Spotify listening on this track...man. for such a cool song there sure are a lot of LAME versions.

    Now there's one more
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 04-01-2017 at 04:12 PM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  7. #6

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    Great choice ! One of the great chord/melody exponents, Ron Eschete , has his take on the tune. The bluesy treatment suits the chord structure.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Ragman-- "jaunty." I enjoyed it.

    Hadda grab the Kingpin and throw in a first take too...trying it in F, like Cannonball.



    I've been doing some Spotify listening on this track...man. for such a cool song there sure are a lot of LAME versions.

    Now there's one more
    Dang, that's a quick chord solo version. Is that just ear? I could probably do it with a chart a lookout quicker than without, but I'm guessing you don't?
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-01-2017 at 05:40 PM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    trying it in F
    I'll have to do a cooler, more jazzy version at some point and it probably won't be in G (Wes and Wynton Kelly did it in C, I think, but that could turn out lame too).

    To be honest, I didn't want to get bogged down in the slow blues scale again, gets samey. It was more fun banging out something with a bit of lift.

    I wasn't just returning like for like, btw, I really do like those neat sounds you make. I'll master it all one day... maybe :-)

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Dang, that's a quick chord solo version. Is that just ear? I could probably do it with a chart a lookout quicker than without, but I'm guessing you don't?
    Yeah, I just eared it. I was pretty familiar with this one though, just in G. So this was just 2 frets down

    Funny, for a tune so bluesy, there's only so many places for the blues scale. It's pretty hip.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post

    Funny, for a tune so bluesy, there's only so many places for the blues scale. It's pretty hip.
    Actually I thought that was partly the problem. It can end up not sounding like it should at all. The Cm bit is okay, apart from that it's mostly dominants and mixo/subs. But I'm not complaining, it can be done - and will be :-)

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Yeah, I just eared it. I was pretty familiar with this one though, just in G. So this was just 2 frets down

    Funny, for a tune so bluesy, there's only so many places for the blues scale. It's pretty hip.
    Well, good ear, Jeff.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-02-2017 at 07:18 AM.

  13. #12

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    Hey, matt, you've taken it off! NO-O-O, it was fine! Honest... put it back, it was perfectly good. It's the angst striking.

    I'd just written you a long post. I think I'm going to post it too. This is a bit naughty because you have the perfect right to delete and NOT have it resurrected. But on this occasion... there was nothing wrong with your playing or your thoughts.

    (If you really, really object, I'll delete too, doesn't matter)


    I'd be interested in other's take on this recording
    It's fine, actually quite good. We probably all suffer from red light panic! If you really want a comment then the rhythm could be broken up with the odd single-note spurt between the chords; breaks it up.

    There are other Wes takes, not just the Half-Note one. One's bouncy, like I did it - although that was my idea, I hadn't heard that version then.

    Also, of course, there are all the other players too, Pass, Benson, Kessell, Martino - they've all done it! And they're all pretty samey too. The Benson version goes a little crazy and even Martino gets stuck between endless blue scale and rapid mixo/arpeggios.

    One really perplexing thing about recording myself is the difference in perception between my "playing self" and my "listening-back self". My playing self seems kind of fixated on note choice, while my listening-back self is more interested in phrasing and not breaking time. Basically, I guess I need to just record more. Need a simpler set,up to start.
    Absolutely. Simple to start with, then build up. I'm sure a lot of people start with too complex stuff and then give up.

    Personally, I tend to just do it and then leave it quite a long while to clear the brain (like the next day) and then listen to it as some other detached listener would. And if it passes the test then good. Otherwise it's dumped.

    Certainly recording a lot helps, you do get used to being in that mode. But you're right about the angst bit - what you think sounds wonderful at the time can sound pedestrian later. And what you have a sinking feeling about can sound great later... it's a minefield.

    So I tend to make multiple takes, go and do something totally different, and then review them. I don't think the casual listener realises the sheer volume of work that goes into this stuff. And the suffering!

    Anyway, the bit at the very end, on the repeat of the A section made me decide to just scrap the whole thing, just chuck it. I stopped playing at that point, because I thought it sounded so bad. Then, when I listened back, that was probably one of my favorite parts. Found myself thinking "It was just getting interesting. You weren't thinking so much".
    That's just it, thinking - or worrying, more like! Trouble is we can't produce those moments when it 'just happens', it's pot luck. Actually I find the more I know and internalise the tune the simpler it tends to get played because the brain's sorted it out deep down.

    I often wonder about pro players (not just guitarists). They know so many tunes, maybe hundreds, and each one is obviously completely familiar. But the occasional story does emerge about hours spent in the studio trying to get it right.

    Sorry this is so long, I don't usually bang on so much about the behind-the-scenes tribulations of recording.
    I suspect the truth is there's only so much one can do with a blues song and making it sound attractive and somewhat original is hard.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-02-2017 at 08:47 AM.

  14. #13

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    Matt, please put that vid back, it was fine. Have a little faith, baby!

  15. #14

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    Btw, this is the bouncy Wes take.


  16. #15

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    Hello All,


    I am planning on starting up a Study Group in May 2017 based on Randy Vincent’s book “The Cellular Approach”. I figured that we could give everybody a month to check out the book and decide whether or not they would like to commit to the group. The book explores cellular improvisation. A cell is a four note group with at least 3 chord tones. It is meant to lead to building improvisations that are melodic and follow the chord changes logically.


    The Introduction reads: “This book is a collection of things to practice on the guitar that will help to develop the vocabulary of jazz improvisation while simultaneously developing and maintaining single-note technique. . . . the focus will mainly be on “cellular” improvisation, which is using very short melodic cells strung together into longer lines. Once we get to the place where we are using strings of cells for “outside” and “free” playing we will move beyond the cellular concept and into some other approaches. I have included many lines and phrases transcribed from the recordings of several master guitarists to demonstrate the validity of the concepts behind the exercises given.”


    There are 5 chapters in this book: Chapter 1 - Cycles and II-V Sequences (247 examples). Chapter 2 - Turnarounds (163 examples). Chapter 3 - Longer Progressions (192 examples). Chapter 4 Outside and Free Playing (113 examples). Chapter 5 - More Outside Lines - All Purpose Licks including Chromatic Intervals, Serial Tone Rows, and 23rd Chords (99 examples)


    I have had this book on my shelf for the past 2 years but I have only played the first 5 pages. Maybe a group will help motivate me and others to incorporate this concept into my own playing.


    The book does not come with a CD (at least my book didn’t). I use iRealPro for backing tracks.



    1. My plan right now is to learn 10 examples a month. Each example is only 2 to four bars long. I have completed the first 12 with minimal effort. I would estimate that this is a 1 to 2 hour commitment per month. We may want to change this depending on the pace maintained by the group once it gets going, plus at that rate it would take us 6 years and 9 months to complete the book.
    2. Discuss or post your performing of the examples.
    3. Discuss or post where to play the “Cells” on the neck of the guitar. Even though Randy does give some indication where he would like the cells to be played, as we know they are always alternative fingerings.
    4. Discuss or post the application of these “cells” into Jazz Standards. I think that this is the most vital part of the exercise. A concept is only a concept until it is made a reality (I just made that up. It is not a famous quote)
    5. At some point, (maybe at the conclusion) I would combine this with Randy’s other famous book “Line Games” and see how it relates to the playing of great guitarists like Wes Montgomery, Jimmy Raney, Tal Farlow, Pat Martino and Joe Pass



    I will be posting this on several threads so I apologize if you seeing this more than once.


    Let me know what you think.

  17. #16

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    Listen to 6:27 on the Wes version posted by ragman1 - refreshing to hear that even Wes can totally screw something up!

    I think he was kind of annoyed because he deliberately then played a kind of 'look at me goofing up' silly run at that point. I think this is the only time I've ever heard Wes make such a stumble!

  18. #17

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    Oh, we probably don't know the half of it.

    I was reading about movies. Some directors make them do scenes again and again, occasionally running into the hundreds - seriously, just to get a look right or some such thing.

    It's hard in the arts :-)

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Hey, matt, you've taken it off! NO-O-O, it was fine! Honest... put it back, it was perfectly good. It's the angst striking.

    I'd just written you a long post. I think I'm going to post it too. This is a bit naughty because you have the perfect right to delete and NOT have it resurrected. But on this occasion... there was nothing wrong with your playing or your thoughts.

    (If you really, really object, I'll delete too, doesn't matter)




    It's fine, actually quite good. We probably all suffer from red light panic! If you really want a comment then the rhythm could be broken up with the odd single-note spurt between the chords; breaks it up.

    There are other Wes takes, not just the Half-Note one. One's bouncy, like I did it - although that was my idea, I hadn't heard that version then.

    Also, of course, there are all the other players too, Pass, Benson, Kessell, Martino - they've all done it! And they're all pretty samey too. The Benson version goes a little crazy and even Martino gets stuck between endless blue scale and rapid mixo/arpeggios.



    Absolutely. Simple to start with, then build up. I'm sure a lot of people start with too complex stuff and then give up.

    Personally, I tend to just do it and then leave it quite a long while to clear the brain (like the next day) and then listen to it as some other detached listener would. And if it passes the test then good. Otherwise it's dumped.

    Certainly recording a lot helps, you do get used to being in that mode. But you're right about the angst bit - what you think sounds wonderful at the time can sound pedestrian later. And what you have a sinking feeling about can sound great later... it's a minefield.

    So I tend to make multiple takes, go and do something totally different, and then review them. I don't think the casual listener realises the sheer volume of work that goes into this stuff. And the suffering!



    That's just it, thinking - or worrying, more like! Trouble is we can't produce those moments when it 'just happens', it's pot luck. Actually I find the more I know and internalise the tune the simpler it tends to get played because the brain's sorted it out deep down.

    I often wonder about pro players (not just guitarists). They know so many tunes, maybe hundreds, and each one is obviously completely familiar. But the occasional story does emerge about hours spent in the studio trying to get it right.

    Sorry this is so long, I don't usually bang on so much about the behind-the-scenes tribulations of recording.
    I suspect the truth is there's only so much one can do with a blues song and making it sound attractive and somewhat original is hard.
    It was early enough I thought I might get away with it. :-) Oh well.... Noodlin'

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Ragman-- "jaunty." I enjoyed it.

    Hadda grab the Kingpin and throw in a first take too...trying it in F, like Cannonball.



    I've been doing some Spotify listening on this track...man. for such a cool song there sure are a lot of LAME versions.

    Now there's one more
    No that sounds great . Nice that you sound inspired and spontaneous. Some real cool voice leading bits on the chords. Nice feel and sound.........So how does this work? One standard a month and everyone posts versions I assume . Ok duh probably answered my own question


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  21. #20

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    you guys are quick!


    a quick pass at it


    2014 Sadowsky Jim Hall
    1996 Gibson GRT18

  22. #21

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    I'm a bit embarrassed to ask this, but what is a good G9/6 fingering? Something like this?
    5
    3
    2
    2
    x
    3
    It doesn't sound bad to me. Do I need a 3rd? Or anything else?

    or

    5
    5
    4
    2
    x
    3
    This one has a 3rd but it doesn't sound as good to me.

    I could be way off on these.

  23. #22

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    Too big of chords.

    Try x x 5 4 5 5
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    So...um...we'll be hearing from you then? Goody
    Yes it's about time I dove in an posted something and this looks like the place to do it. Let me pull my man cave together and hook up a camera.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  25. #24

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    Definitely, this the place low pressure...post one, comment on a few, gather some ideas, post again. My favorite thing abit this place.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Definitely, this the place low pressure...post one, comment on a few, gather some ideas, post again. My favorite thing abit this place.
    Absolutely

  27. #26

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    Seems like this tune needs to be funkified. Maybe I'll try that. April 2017 - Willow Weep for MeApril 2017 - Willow Weep for Me
    I found a nice latin version (Poncho Sanchez).
    Last edited by KirkP; 04-02-2017 at 08:26 PM.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    It's fine, actually quite good. We probably all suffer from red light panic! If you really want a comment then the rhythm could be broken up with the odd single-note spurt between the chords; breaks it up.
    thanks for the kind words btw. Long busy day.

    I actually really like the blues tunes for solo guitar. They really demand that you break thinks up beyond the basic chord-underneath thing which is passable with other tunes in chord melody style.

    Great tune this month. Really nice-contrasting B-section, but man, it's a beast. Think I might do a whole month of aimee nolte's tune-a-week protocol for this tune. Maybe after a few months I could learn to do it in an actual week! :-)

  29. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I've been doing some Spotify listening on this track...man. for such a cool song there sure are a lot of LAME versions.
    Did a good bit of listening today too . Actually really enjoyed a lot of them. Skipped the ones I didn't like. One thing I like about the selection process we are currently using, with the jazz standards site, is that there are a TON of recordings of these tunes.

    Notice that there's kind of a tradition of playing willow really slow and then eventually doubletime, a few choruses in. A lot of triplet rhythmic subs and moving things around /making space in the phrasing. A lot of just seeing how far behind you can phrase things.

    Man, Lou Rawls phrases things way way behind . Really good vocal version. Kenny Burrell has a nice one too . Does the doubletime thing at the end in a cool way. Then James Brown's groove is just infectious. Different

    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-04-2017 at 07:35 AM.

  30. #29
    This rhythm section though:


    the kind of phrasing and groove in this is what this tune is all about my mind. I really like that it's a good blues but with that contrasting B section . Cool tune.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-04-2017 at 05:16 PM.

  31. #30

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    You guys all sound like ringers. I am trying , back at you soon. Sounds like there are no rules as to how you do the tune. Really like the variety of versions.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    (warning: non-jazz content)
    We'll survive...

    I've been waiting for you... Well, you did one octave... :-)

    (Edit)
    Twixt you and me, deep down I think I'm avoiding doing anything too slow and meaningful because I know I'll just run over a lot of blues scale stuff and there's got to be a better way.
    Last edited by ragman1; 04-05-2017 at 07:15 PM.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jkniff26 View Post
    Really like the variety of versions.
    I'm waiting for someone to do a flamenco version; the middle bit goes Cm-Bb-Ab-G7 twice... Olé!

  34. #33

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    Speak of the devil...

    Last edited by ragman1; 04-05-2017 at 07:14 PM.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    Cool. Like what you're doing starting around 2:00. Feel locks in more with that triplet / 12/8 feel there especially. Especially for really slow tune.

    Always have a great tone btw.
    I think the way to play most blues is to imagine the underlying rhythm as a triplet feel rather than a steady 4/4 beat. Mind you, if I did it here it was probably an accident.

    As for the tone, it's a miracle. I just use the acoustic into Audacity via the computer's inbuilt mike, no interface. Reverb on the lead helps.

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Around 2:26, lol.

    If you're serious about the backing track, I could post the file here as an MP3, or I could upload it to soundcloud (without my noodling), but I am running out of space on my account there.
    Yeah. Sharing some backing tracks would be helpful , especially for lowlifes like me. Liked the 12/8 vibes.

    I know we are trying to keep things low maintenance on the threads, but it WOULD be cool if people shared backing tracks as the create /felt like it.

  37. #36

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    Fuzz -

    I must be honest, I like your cool backings too and it's crossed my mind quite a lot to ask you to post one so I could steal it...

    By the way, with willow, I put the bass down first against a click track, later deleted, so the rhythm would be steady. Then comped the chords in over it. Very slow tunes are always a bit tricky rhythm-wise.

  38. #37

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    Thanks, fuzz, interesting. Is that the one you used before?

  39. #38
    Another noodle session, but this is one thing I wanted to check off my technology Bucketlist this year. Never posted on SoundCloud.

    I'm ashamed to say that I almost never play this guitar plugged in. It's a thin line is mostly a TV guitar. Really a shame . I'm lazy I guess. Just noodling. Don't really know where the line is between jazz and blooz. Probably easier if I played little more electric. Maybe 2017 .


    Louis Bellson on drums, I think. :-)
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-11-2017 at 11:21 PM.

  40. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    I did have fun with this. Might have gone better if it wasn't for the neighbour's dog, birds singing, passing aircraft, and me squeaking the chair and sniffing. Apart from that it was fine. It's in Bb too :-)
    So sweet!
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  41. #40
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-13-2017 at 02:21 PM.

  42. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    To be honest, I'm a bit played out with the blues sound so I got a bit creative...
    you mean this one? I'd say bluesiest one yet brother. Sorry. But I think it's a good thing.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-13-2017 at 03:06 PM.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    you mean this one? I'd say bluesiest one yet brother. Sorry. But I think it's a good thing.
    It is a good thing, definitely, but there are only so many things you can do with a blues scale, which is basically only a pentatonic. I love the sound, probably we all do and the world would be a poorer place without it, but playing-wise one can tire of it quite quickly. There's not a lot of scope at 70 bpm over two choruses!

  44. #43

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    I dunno, throw in a few chromatics...change articulations...slides, bends...I think there's still a lot to say with ol blues scale.

    That said, "willow" is a bluesy tune, but it's not a basic blues in structure and harmony, and one blues scale does not cut it over these changes. The chord progression is too juicy.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  45. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I dunno, throw in a few chromatics...change articulations...slides, bends...I think there's still a lot to say with ol blues scale.

    That said, "willow" is a bluesy tune, but it's not a basic blues in structure and harmony, and one blues scale does not cut it over these changes. The chord progression is too juicy.
    The last day or two, I have been interested in the idea of pitch collections/scales which imply "blues scale +".

    Woke up this morning thinking about G Dorian b9 over G9. If you use that pitch collection to target the 9th, (natural nine) of that G9 chord, you get some cool stuff, while still basically implying blues. This is the kind of thing Reg used to talk about with pulling outside pitches from specific harmonic contexts - especially confusing: ...using melodic minor to "organize blue notes" and how "blue notes may influence your approach or similar. Different way of looking at chromatics I guess.

    Can still remember Kevin frothing at the mouth over this. "Blue notes don't INFLUENCE or ORGANIZE anything!" Took me almost 10 years , but I finally think I at least understand a little bit of what the argument was actually ABOUT.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-14-2017 at 09:00 AM.

  46. #45

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    I'm confused, you're using a scale with a b9 to target 9? Like as an enclosure/approach note?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  47. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I'm confused, you're using a scale with a b9 to target 9? Like as an enclosure/approach note?
    Yeah. natural nine feels very essential to me for blues sound . This gives you just a couple of good outside pitches for targeting. You can target it directly or just mess around with "outside" which resolves at some point, less directly.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-14-2017 at 09:23 AM.

  48. #47

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    But you're obviously not using one scale over the whole form, right?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  49. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    But you're obviously not using one scale over the whole form, right?
    Oh no. Sorry. Yeah.

  50. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by fuzzthebee View Post
    Have you investigated using Am with an added G#? Since A minor is the same pitch collection as G Mixolydian, you can play certain Am (or E7b9) language using that note (like the cliche - B, C, G#, B, A) to target the natural 9.
    I haven't done too much of this sort of thing, honestly. Discussion of what to do beyond "just playing the blues scale" kind of got me thinking about this again.

    There are whole lot of "7-note+1" options apparently. Especially over blues, because there are so many references in terms of what blues tonality can be: overall functional type things, chord of the the moment, major/minor blues etc. etc.

    What I'm kind of exploring right now is the idea of pitch collections for "outside notes". Not necessarily looking for things which sound consonant over chord of the moment But more like targeting relationships *to* the more consonant tones.

    I'm a little behind on blues generally, because I didn't play a lot of it coming up the way most rockers kind of do.

    Always enjoy your take on things by the way , specially re harmonizations and exploring different color palettes . It seems like you're always pushing , and you've got real chops.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-14-2017 at 12:40 PM.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    G Dorian b9 over G9. If you use that pitch collection to target the 9th, (natural nine) of that G9 chord
    Well, G dorian is F major. If you flatten the A you get F melodic minor: F G Ab Bb C D E F.

    Then you use that to target the natural A of the G9. Is that what you mean?

    April 2017 - Willow Weep for Me-untitled-jpg

    (Using F mel over G7 is a known sub).