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  1. #1

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    The poll winner is "Joy Spring", a very lively bebop tune probably best known as a Clifford Brown hit.
    Below you will find a BIAB Realtracks jazz guitar trio backing track and a corresponding Lead sheet.

    backing track------->https://app.box.com/s/0a4v2a4o3h8opqcfig6mn2mejwb90664

    Lead sheet------->https://app.box.com/s/dazfyyivo22ckfo9ura5z4qjvai7kusl
    wiz (Howie)
    Last edited by wizard3739; 09-05-2015 at 12:56 PM.
    Howie

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Just for fun, this is the version of "Joy Spring" I submitted in 2011. I hope this will help get us started on Septembers' submittals. I am trying to put together a new version which will be different than the 2011 version.

    wiz

    Joy Spring (2011)------>https://app.box.com/s/buzdeiqy0ib6p0499trt
    Last edited by wizard3739; 09-08-2015 at 04:10 PM.
    Howie

  4. #3

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    Thanks for posting Wiz.

    So far I've learned the first 16 bars of melody. Well it's actually 8 bars + repeat first 7 half step above + 1 "new", but it's not my fault the tune is such.
    ^ ^ ^
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    v v v

  5. #4

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    I recorded a Version.
    There's different versions of the Bridge and the playalong doesn't really fit the one I went with.
    I only learned the tune yesterday so I decided to take it slow.
    Maybe I'll record a faster version towards the end of the month.
    Awesome tune btw.
    I really haven't listened to enough Clifford Brown.

  6. #5

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    Ok, I recorded another version.
    I'd love to hear your thoughts (don't hold back!)

  7. #6

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    Nice, ggjay. I think I preferred your first version, but it's been removed, so I can't compare again. I recall it was slightly more up-tempo, and I think I liked your improv' and interpretation of the melody a bit more. Noticed some alternate changes in this latest version. Interesting!

  8. #7

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    Nice, wiz. Comping through the intro and first chorus? (I almost missed that the soloing started later!) There was an acoustic quality to the recording. Did you have a live mic on the guitar or in the room? Liked the ending.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggjay View Post
    Ok, I recorded another version.
    I'd love to hear your thoughts (don't hold back!)
    This one is definitely smoother and more worked out than the first one. I liked endings of phrases when you emhasised the soud of the note against underlying chord.
    Like M-Ster, I also prefered the tempo and energy of the first take, but it did have some clashes and "lost" moments, which you perfected in this version.

    Also, I think 2nd version is closer to notation as provided by Wiz, which I appreciate. If I ever manage, mine will be note for note, with maybe some rhythmic alterations.

    So, I think some combination of the two would do thhe trick. Say, 2nd version, but faster, with some rock 'n' roll.
    Last edited by Vladan; 09-11-2015 at 02:44 PM.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  10. #9

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    Hi!

    Thanks for you feedback!
    I get really bored when I listen to this version.
    It's too slow and not much interesting stuff is happening.
    I think I'll practice the tune for a week or two and then post a faster version with more rock'n'roll.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by M-ster View Post
    Nice, wiz. Comping through the intro and first chorus? (I almost missed that the soloing started later!) There was an acoustic quality to the recording. Did you have a live mic on the guitar or in the room? Liked the ending.
    M-ster: I think I recorded that one before I had my own home studio. Yes, I did do some comping for the intro and the first chorus. I always use a live Mic at a 45 degree angle to my old Raezers' Edge speaker. I don't remember the make on the microphone, probably a Shure. "Joy Spring" is one of my favorite jazz standards.

    wiz (Howie)
    Howie

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by ggjay View Post
    Hi!

    Thanks for you feedback!
    I get really bored when I listen to this version.
    It's too slow and not much interesting stuff is happening.
    I think I'll practice the tune for a week or two and then post a faster version with more rock'n'roll.
    Must say, your versions were of great help. That 2nd version is not bad at all, IMO. I quite liked it, just liked the first one better.
    I only wish I could learn and play a tune in such a short term as you can.

    Finally, I can say, I've learnd and memorized the whole melody. Now, putting it to speed ... I can play each "lick" quite fast, arround 180, maybe even at 200, but still can not connect and play without mistakes. Then, I'll have to figure out the chords and comping style, but something tells me this would sound great played by Ramones, or Stiff Little Fingers , ...
    ^ ^ ^
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  13. #12

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    My arm is hurting (remember all those cries for being relaxed on the technique threads, they were a warning) I'll give myself a week off. I'd love to start doing this, and this tune is a great way to get that blueoop bop into ya fingers.

    I would also like to suggest that we share our process for learning the particular standard (those who want to participate). I know there has been much talk on how we learn tunes overall, but it would be great to give specific examples on tunes. Each tune has specific challenges to it, such as this bop tune. I'd like to learn how you all approach learning Joy Spring and other tunes as well.

    So this is what I'll do.

    I've posted countless times that ear training is my priority in my own practice time. I've also stated again again, the importance of "prehearing" before you play...

    ...So I will post some of what that looks like today because my "difficult" housemates (trying to be civil here) aren't home. My process starts without the guitar at all (which is good for my tennis elbow) and involves locating harmonic movement and singing against a drone. Yes, there will be singing (just as a warning). If this doesn't interest you, I promise I will not monopolize the thread. But I would like to learn your approaches as well, on a tune by tune basis.

    I started the process and my voice sounds yuck. I'll make it another thread on this part of the forum so I don't torture the people who aren't interested. I'll call it Approaching Practical Standards or something.
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-14-2015 at 08:39 AM.

  14. #13

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    I can't stop posting versions of this tune aaahhh help!

  15. #14

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    Keep posting, but make sure the soundcloud stuff works. Freeeeeking teeknologies!

    EDIT: It worked, was that Jerry Bergonzi I heard counting it off? You play with Jerry, awesome solo, b t dubbs

  16. #15

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    Yeah, thats Jerry. And my man Adam Nussbaum on the drums
    Thanks!

  17. #16

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    Damn you gg, you got me to my guitar again (bad for my tennis elbow and I don't play tennis :/ ) Check out the thread I made to accompany this thread. I'll have more up on it by EOD (end of the day)

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Damn you gg, you got me to my guitar again (bad for my tennis elbow and I don't play tennis :/ ) Check out the thread I made to accompany this thread. I'll have more up on it by EOD (end of the day)
    Please don't hurt yourself! I had to take a step back too because of all the hammer-ons in the melody.
    They really tired out my left hand.
    I posted something in your thread.

  19. #18

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    Nice job GG, I liked this one better than the first two, but all were nice. I liked the adventurous approach on this one because you were out there taking chances and trying out some new ideas. I also liked the return to the melody for the last chorus.

    wiz (Howie)
    Howie

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ggjay View Post
    Please don't hurt yourself! I had to take a step back too because of all the hammer-ons in the melody.
    They really tired out my left hand.
    I posted something in your thread.
    It's interesting seeing the sheet posted up; I always think of the tune as just having 8th notes, G-F, on the last beat of bars 5 and 7, and F-G-F the last beat and a half of bar 8. You could also if you realy want to work those fingers put a turn on the A in bar 10 (or in many other places for that matter!)

  21. #20

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    A nice version - great tone...


  22. #21

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    And another one.

  23. #22

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    very tight! Love the shapes of your lines. It sounds like you are listening to what you are playing instead of letting the changes play you

  24. #23

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    Ggjay, unstoppable jazz machine.

    At the moment, I can play whole melody/form at tempo very close to this latest version of ggjay. Sometimes even mistake free. Still did not try to improvise, could not give it full attention with all the day job and both wife and kid ill at the same time, but there instead I have 2 different backing guitars, for, possibly a completely new song. Hopefully, I'll get to record it early next week, maybe even before that.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  25. #24

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    Do you guys mind if I post Joy Spring here in October? Every time I touch my guitar, I regret it after (a horrible, horrible concept). Vlad and everyone, thanks for the suggestions for my damn elbow.

  26. #25

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    Thanks Vlad, but I know I could do better. I want to play more continuous, but melodic, eighth notes and some double time (musically). Also, I got stuck on a couple of ideas instead of reaching for more.

    That tells me that I need to sing through the tune more. Next steps are singing the melody, singing 3rds, 7ths, and singing chromatic neighbor tones. By the way, everything that I am singing is material that I would have done on the instrument anyway. This way, I hear if before I practice it on the fretboard.
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-24-2015 at 04:15 PM.

  27. #26

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    I'll try that, thanks. Yeah, I know the recording sounds horrible... lemme see what I can move around.

  28. #27

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    Was this this month's tune? I tried to find the melody....

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irez87 View Post
    Thanks Vlad, but I know I could do better. I want to play more continuous, but melodic, eighth notes and some double time (musically). Also, I got stuck on a couple of ideas instead of reaching for more..
    The like was meant to celebrate first post with your playing.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  30. #29

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    Did you all check out the previous thread on this song done in the early days of the Practical Standards threads? There's some good stuff there.

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/jazzg...oy-spring.html

    Here's a video that Reg posted on that previous thread (I know Reg won't mind). I like to learn from these Reg videos:

    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  31. #30

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    Yeah, I said in a previous post, the tune isn't completely ingrained yet. I still have to internalize the melody so I can play the melody and reference it in my solo. I can take down my posting, I wasn't crazy about it anyway. Love the tune, though. And Graham, thank you for solving my recording fiasco.

  32. #31

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    thanks for the celebratory like. Is it beer worthy?

    Thanks dude!

  33. #32

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    IMO, the best way to "internalize" a melody, an essential step in learning a tune , is to practice it- each and every note- not until you don't make a mistake, but until you can't......then build on that with your own touch.

  34. #33

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    I do it by singing it first... I know, I know, but it works for me I need to start with sound, not with technique or any other mechanisms. It helps give the fret board more context to me. To each his or her own

  35. #34

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    Hope I'll manage to record some improvisation and melody in next couple of days,
    for now, as I mentioned couple Punk bands eaarlier in the thread, just an

    Oi! Thing

    ^ ^ ^
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  36. #35

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    Honestly, I don't give a rats patoot. What you posted makes me happy Vlad. I think if you play music well, and it makes people happy, then it doesn't matter whatever the hell you wanna categorize it as... But I've already said my peace on the matter of genre. Sounds good Vlad, I gotta post another version of Joy Spring with the melody.

  37. #36

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    Here's a recording of today's practice session.
    The circumstances were:
    Metronome on 2 and 4 at 65 bpm. So quarter notes at 130.
    No sheet music.
    Downstrokes exclusively for 8th notes. (I watched a lot of Russell Malone on youtube lately)

    I must say I had a lot of fun!

    The thing I really notice is that I have to make better use of dynamics.
    If you guys have any suggestions I'd love to hear them.
    @ Vlad. The comping you recorded is awesome!


  38. #37

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    Thank you ggjay.
    As I said before, I think awesome is your capability to produce quality in quantities and time. Some of the things you did and play, or simillar, I also tried out, but never got them to the point of being worth recording. For example, playing all 1/8 as downstrokes, effectively moving hand in 1/16, but hitting only when needed, lot's of empty work and so on ... I did not know Malone was doing such stuff. Maybe thats why sometimes, as per my personal observation and taste, don't shoot me, he can sound a bit stiff and out of the musical requirements, but that is only at the edge of his speed possibilities. At just slightly lower tempos, still very fast, he sounds quite musical, just like you do. Guess that's how he's got his name, afterall.
    ^ ^ ^
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    v v v

  39. #38

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    Here's mine. It's taken quite a while to get the melody down with all those triplets - not easy! Tempo is 160 like the original Clifford Brown version.

    I recorded 2 guitar tracks (comping + solo).


  40. #39

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    Hey Grahambop.

    You certainly have a thing going on. Such a nice tone and also very strong melodic ideas! I also love the fact you you didn't just "Aebersold" og "BIAB'ed" it regarding to a backing track!

    I do miss a little rhythmic variation. The improv is very 8th note based, with few pauses and the comping doesn't create much rhythmic tension either. But hey, everyone with a keyboard on the internet is a so-called "expert" so don't take my criticism negatively.

    Best
    Claus

    PS: well, actually Mr. Brown also plays very long 8th note lines. Around 2.10 he gets to the 16ths, wow - Such a nice solo!
    Last edited by yaclaus; 09-28-2015 at 09:50 PM.

  41. #40

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    Ggjay, I seem to remember you mentioning you have issues with your phrasing. You sound good. But, if you wanna practice phrasing, get out of the habit of playing with the metronome on 2 and 4. You sound advanced enough to send that technique to the proverbial garbage. Here we go with more people getting pissed at me, but playing with the metronome on 2 and 4, when you already know how to play in time, does nothing for your playing. Real drummers don't even accent or cadence on 2 and 4. It's a tradition, but I think it's a tradition for those brand new to jazz. Not for people who are more seasoned.

    Instead of 2 and 4, put the metronome on the downbeat of each measure. Or, get a drum machine, and put the click on every 2 measures (that syncs up to the harmonic rhythm of Joy Spring). Or a click every 4 measures (so your lines can be even more cohesive.

    Once you do this, you will have an even more knowledgeable understanding of how space (pauses as some say) work in an improvised line.

    PM me if you want some material on this

    I will try and convince my Brooklyn peeps to play Joy Spring again. We did it before, but the tune kicked my ass. This time, I hope to go toe to toe with the tune

    Graham, I loved your rendition as well. Your tone (even on the solid body) is pretty freaking sweet. I'm telling you, it's all those years playing classical. That's why Johnny Smith played with such a bell like tone, he loved Segovia (as many of you have pointed out).
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-28-2015 at 10:05 PM.

  42. #41

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    I don't think there's anything wrong with Grahambop's version. I don't miss any space, or rhythmic variety. I think it is exactly appropriate for a joyfull happy tune like this.
    Simillar goes for ggjay, he is obviously trying out some things, experimenting, I'm sure he'd do it a bit different if he was going for "finished product".

    I only wish they did it on video, it'd be easier to steal.
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  43. #42

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    Thanks for the comments folks. I don't mind a bit of criticism, I can take it! I think yaclaus has some valid points. I'm usually a bit wary of using that 'Joe Pass walking bass' thing as it does get a bit repetitive. But I felt it worked ok enough for a tune like this, also I probably got the idea from the Emily Remler/Larry Coryell duo, I think they did something similar. They vary it a lot more than I can however. That's probably why I only did about 3 choruses.

    As for the eighth notes, I think these bebop tunes tend to lead you into that, especially if they have a lot of 2-5-1 patterns like this one. So I do usually try to break that up a bit more than I did here. I would have liked to do some 16ths but I'm not fast enough!

    Irez87 makes a good point about classical guitar - I was taught a lot about acoustic tone production back then, i.e. right amount of fingertip and nail to use, how to pluck the strings etc. When I started jazz I drew on that knowledge to look at my picking angle and technique to try and get a bigger tone. So I guess I always had the mindset that the biggest tone improvements can be made at the fingers and pick, before you get anywhere near the gear. Possibly that helps me get a similar sound on the solid guitar and the archtop. Generally I only use the solid when it's late at night and I've got to keep the noise down, as was the case here.


    Interesting about the metronome - I usually do put it on 2 and 4, because I think it sounds like a hi-hat beat and also it forces me to 'feel' where beat one is, because the metronome doesn't give it to me. Having said that, I did practise the Joy Spring melody quite a bit with the metronome on all 4 beats. I needed this to tighten up the rhythm (especially the bridge where it has those accents falling in odd places).

    Vladan - I would have liked to do a video but that takes more time to rig up unfortunately - I just wanted to get this tune done before the month runs out!
    Last edited by grahambop; 09-29-2015 at 06:06 AM.

  44. #43

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    Nice to see thread is still goin on...

    ggjay... your playing is great, I dig it. So maybe moving on and and trying to create even better improv could be next step.
    Your playing sounds like your just playing the changes and maybe referencing the melody... all great. But you might try developing other relationships... a simple approach is to create a rhythmic or melodic idea, a phrase and then use the changes to develop that phrase... could even be just a note or two.

    Example take a two bar phrase... take the and of beat 2 of the 1st bar and make that the accent target of the 2 bar phrase. But make that target,(+ of beat2), strong rhythmically and also more of a dissonant note... sus, blue note...not a chord tone unless it's chord tone of an added chord, say for example... the 1st two bars, make the target or + of beat 2 of bar 1 a Bb... but also have that Bb be the b13 of D7#9... so your improve would be referencing ...say /F6/9 D7#9 / G-7 C7 / for the 1st 2 bar phrase. Use the 2nd bar of phrase to relax the tension... or use another rhythmic or melodic idea as a pedal to, again relax the tension your going to be creating with this 2 bar tension release approach.

    Just beginning to think with this approach will open your ears and head to getting past just spelling changes... there are lots of other approaches, the method I'm suggesting is really just using basic dominant/ tonic or tension release and having the options of using other organization for what the tension and release are...

    Grahambop... you might also try approach, your playing is really great, very accomplished... but basically your just getting through the changes, right, a few rhythmic figures that somewhat help hold your ideas together...you need to slow down the changes.... make phrases that hold themselves and interact with the changes.... not just be the changes. By the time you finish the head the chord tones are there whether you play them or not... right.

    OK sorry please take my comments as trying to help not dish. That is what the point of this thread was when I started it, help us all improve. I'll try and make something for examples, nothing rehearsed etc...

  45. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    ...you need to slow down the changes.... make phrases that hold themselves and interact with the changes.... not just be the changes. By the time you finish the head the chord tones are there whether you play them or not... right.
    Hey, reg. What do you mean by "slowing down the changes" here?

  46. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Grahambop... you might also try approach, your playing is really great, very accomplished... but basically your just getting through the changes, right, a few rhythmic figures that somewhat help hold your ideas together...you need to slow down the changes.... make phrases that hold themselves and interact with the changes.... not just be the changes. By the time you finish the head the chord tones are there whether you play them or not... right.

    OK sorry please take my comments as trying to help not dish. That is what the point of this thread was when I started it, help us all improve. I'll try and make something for examples, nothing rehearsed etc...
    No problem Reg - I'm very critical of my own playing! I think I know what you mean. It's taken me years to get to where my lines fit the changes, so next stage is probably to look beyond that. I guess you mean develop melodic lines that have their own internal logic which is not so dictated by the chord tones. Happy to learn from any examples you can give!

  47. #46

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    Hey Matt... basically slow down the feel of movement... even though the changes are different, the phrase still feel like one statement... longer melodic ideas that imply longer spatial time.

    In Joy Spring, most seen to play in two beat feel. The phrasing feels like half note pace. Sometimes single bar phrases. Anyway that starts to get old pretty quick... never seems to create much.... But great for developing skills.

    Try and hear as a listener might, I always perform for the audience, try and play what I believe they will go with. Most musicians have different listening concepts.

    Hey Graham... yes. Personally that involves basically adding more changes and altering existing changes. So I'm really still playing chord tones... I just have more choices for organizing where those chord tones are from. Again personally, the harmony and the changes are the same thing.... for me they're both going on the same time. Every single note I play also has a complete vertical reference, a chord or voicing. There are just lots of changes.

    Sure I'll try and post something

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    I'm usually a bit wary of using that 'Joe Pass walking bass' thing as it does get a bit repetitive. But I felt it worked ok enough for a tune like this, also I probably got the idea from the Emily Remler/Larry Coryell duo, I think they did something similar. They vary it a lot more than I can however. That's probably why I only did about 3 choruses.
    Sounds great.

    The melody and improv is what draws my attention. As such, I didn't notice the comping guitar being repetitive at all.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  49. #48

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    Grahambop: Your version is another good example of your talent! I really like your lines and your tone is beautiful. Actually, the whole thing sounds very professional and I can find nothing that truly needs improvement. I had to listen to it a couple more times because it is very good listening.

    wiz
    Howie

  50. #49

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    Reg, your comment sounds familiar. We spoke about phrasing a while back, I think it was. I also discussed phrasing on my drone crazy pod cast thing. The drone marked every two measures, I believe. A lot of people who have heard me play say that I float above the changes. I can't say I am a professional like Reg, but listen back to some of my posts and keep Reg's comments on phrasing in mind. Although the changes is important, playing the implied pulse (feeling 2, 4 and 8 measure phrases) maybe even more important.

    For me, that means singing through the changes (yes Reg, I know that's annoying, but it's cool. I've still found all your posts extremely helpful, even if we can't always agree ) so that I can hear sound and manipulate it rhythmically or, as Diz would do, hear rhythm and manipulate it sonically.

    I've done positional studies before and I agree that they are important, and this should go on the "Approaching Practical Standards" thread, but whatevs mcgevs. The question is this, and be honest:

    "What do you think about when you play the song without any accompaniment?"

    Do you...

    1. Think of where the notes are in your current position

    2. Think of the names of the notes you are playing

    3. Think of chord shapes relating to the harmonies that you are playing

    4. Hear the sound of the harmony that you are playing.

    I am trying to go about songs with response # 4 in mind. This is a recent endeavor for me, it's really hard, it's really embarrassing, and it will feel like a waste of time because it is away from the instrument. But, I challenge another person (friendly) to try the 4th approach with me on the next tune that is called (I will still post Joy Spring after I play it on Thursday with the Brooklyn Jazz Collective... Stefon Harris, look out! )

    It takes at least a month to fully "sing through" a tune. As my students would say "ain't nobody's got time for that shite", but you might like the results after the fact. Any takers?
    Last edited by Irez87; 09-29-2015 at 06:59 PM.

  51. #50

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    Listen with headphones

    Two points:

    1. No Melody. For a bop tune like this, especially a Brownie head, that is sacrilege (honestly)

    2. I screwed up because I was sight reading (I didn't want to flub the changes, I am still internalizing the sound of the progression) and I was off with the click towards the middle and end.

    If anyone wants to know where I got the click track, go to the Ear Training Journal I started.

    Not trying to be a braggart or anything (where have you heard that word in conversation?) but working on this stuff helps me more than anything else I've ever worked on. The teacher side in me wants to share what works with people. It's exciting stuff if you give it a chance