Minor Blues changes

**bass2man** · 05-11-2010, 08:28 PM

Hi guys..

I have been working on some minor blues tunes e.g. Mr PC, Birks Works and need some help in sketching out the changes.

I have been playing minor ideas for the first three bars (say Cm7) and playing Dom ideas in measure 4 leading to the iv ( C7 to Fm7)....

I cant seem to get the right arp or scale for measures 9 and 10 i.e. the Ab7 to G7 change...

Any thoughts/ideas would be greatly appreciated...Thanks!

**Aristotle** · 05-11-2010, 09:46 PM

Minor Blues | Jazz Guitar Chord Progressions

**Sailor** · 05-11-2010, 10:17 PM

Why is EbM7 listed as bIII in C minor?? Isn't it diatonic and therefore just III??

Sailor

**Reg** · 05-11-2010, 11:41 PM

Because most music roman numerals refer to a major templet

**voelker** · 05-11-2010, 11:58 PM

most people would say there is no III in Cm and try playing Ab diminished(aka G7b9) over bars 9 and 10

**Reg** · 05-12-2010, 08:55 AM

Typ. on bar 9, the Ab7 (bVI), would be lydian b7 and the G7 (V) would be alt.(7th degree of Ab M.M.). When you solo or comp you usually don't just hand on the down beat chord. The strong beat gives you something to point of reference to play with. check out PDF

**FatJeff** · 05-12-2010, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by voelker

most people would say there is no III in Cm and try playing Ab diminished(aka G7b9) over bars 9 and 10

Huh? Sure there's a III. It's flatted (maybe that's the point you were trying to get across).

You don't need to put in a flat to explicitly specify bIII; that's already implied by the fact that we're dealing with a minor key. The capital letters refer to the fact that the III in a minor key is a major tonality.

At least, that's how they taught it to us in school.

http://www.musictheory.net/legacy/swf/id44.swf

**Kochavi** · 05-12-2010, 01:16 PM

Well, blues scale works pretty well, because of the b7 of the Ab as the blue note. Parallel movemnt between the two is also a nice and common possibility. I usually aim for that Gb, it really delivers the sound of the chord. You can also see it as a minor II-V, with the Ab as a D half diminshed, also works.

**bass2man** · 05-12-2010, 07:19 PM

Thanks Aristotle..I could not find the link for that lesson....

So the Ab7 is the Tri sub for a Dm7b5..which subs/makes a long minor ii-Valt-i....so Ab Lydian b7 to Ab melodic minor is a choice...dont know why I did not see the Ab7/G7/Cm7 as a minor 2-5-1....makes sense..

As always....thanks!

**Sailor** · 05-12-2010, 08:50 PM

That's what I'm saying FATJEFF...Eb is III in C minor....why would you "flat" it???

Sailor

**voelker** · 05-13-2010, 01:00 AM

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Huh? Sure there's a III. It's flatted (maybe that's the point you were trying to get across).

That was exactly the point i was trying to make. You can obviously deduce that Eb is the diatonic 3rd of C minor, but a minor triad is still 1,b3,5. They both make sense, one is just more specific.

I didn't go to school for music, but i'm curious to know if assuming the III symbol to be a b3rd is standard in jazz theory, classical theory, or both?

**Aristotle** · 05-13-2010, 07:38 AM

Originally Posted by bass2man

Thanks Aristotle..I could not find the link for that lesson....

So the Ab7 is the Tri sub for a Dm7b5..which subs/makes a long minor ii-Valt-i....so Ab Lydian b7 to Ab melodic minor is a choice...dont know why I did not see the Ab7/G7/Cm7 as a minor 2-5-1....makes sense..

As always....thanks!

Here is the master page that gets you to all the 'chord-scale' theory from this particular source.
Free Jazz Guitar Lessons Online | Learn How To Play Jazz Guitar With Tabs

**Reg** · 05-13-2010, 11:42 PM

Would you call Emaj. #III in C-? Just wondering...Reg

**FatJeff** · 05-13-2010, 11:55 PM

Originally Posted by Reg

Would you call Emaj. #III in C-? Just wondering...Reg

Well, if I were analyzing that from a classical perspective, I would think it would be a modulation, since E natural is not in the key of Cm...so what numeral I would assign would depend on the new key.

**Reg** · 05-14-2010, 02:14 AM

Hey Jeff... hey man when you play a blues and go to the four chord, do you call it a modulation... In jazz you talk in jazz terminology... Because basically through modal interchange any chord on any root is available anytime. Hey jeff I have a traditional music degree from UCLA, but also have a degree from Berklee... When I talk or play jazz ...I don't use traditional music terminology because it's to much work... or should I say...it doesn't work. Obviously not all things. When you look at Bartok's four tonic systems or Schoenberg's 12 tone or serial music you don't use Baroque analysis... sorry to ramble on, but in Jazz.... roman numerals all refer to Maj. In Cmin. Ebmaj is bIII and Abmaj is bVI. If in C Melodic Min., A-7b5 would be VI-7b5, not #VI-7b5 or a modulation. Jeff you have great posts and you always have my respect and I apologize for using you to help make a point, but jazz has it's own terminology. Reg

**FatJeff** · 05-14-2010, 10:51 AM

Well sorry, Reg, but you're simply not allowed to go to a IV7 chord. That breaks the rules! :-)

Yes, I understand that things in jazz are freer and looser than in classical music. I'm comfortable with either "bIII" or "III". I've seen it both ways. And quite honestly there is a pretty wide variance in the terminology used for jazz, much more so than in classical music. So any way you want to write it is fine with me, as long as I get the basic idea.

**Aristotle** · 05-14-2010, 11:48 AM

Is it possible that music theory rules are not all that well codified? When I saw the, "bIII," I knew it meant the Eb chord. If the post said, "III," I would have taken that for the Eb chord as well.

**franamico** · 05-28-2010, 04:36 PM

You can play a mixolidian mode over Ab7 and an altered scale over G7 or you can treat the progression as a II V in Cmin. For Dminb5 and G7alt I like using the Cmin harmonic minor. To that I add the Bb as a passing tone.