Building A Jazz Language - Bebop focus, for the moment.

[James W]

But it's not about you... something funny here. Anyway, your business, not mine.

Erm... Jazzjourney4Eva started this thread??

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Thank guys, and keep it coming. Thanks for sharing your insights and experiences. Very helpful and much appreciated.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

But it's not about you... something funny here. Anyway, your business, not mine.

It's about sharing insights, formal and informal experiences, trial and error, methods and practices. Whatever worked or didn't. I suppose I could have limited the query to professionals/experts only, but didn't want to do that.

Years ago my thinking about Bebop was that it was passe. (is that how you spell that?). Anyway, my thinking has flipped. I don't want to go permanently back in time and be stuck in a period, it's just that it seems to me that building a foundation in bebop - then "modernizing it" is the preferable way to go. I realize that one could start with post-bop or fusion etc. and never look back. A lot of the "study material" in that vein looks like anything goes (because anything does, almost). I have a big library of that stuff. Bebop on the other hand, seems to have a tighter rule set, or at least you can choose to treat it that way. Getting a firm grasp on the type of style-specific snaky lines that bebop uses seems like a worthwhile goal to me. My interest is to build skill in (mostly straightahead) jazz improvisation. There is something appealing about the notion of establishing a firm bebop foundation. That's the first part, the second - and sizable part - is application to the guitar.

If it were easy anybody could do it.

[ragman1]

passe. (is that how you spell that?)

It'll do in English because most people will understand it, although technically it's French with an accent - passé - which is also how it's pronounced (passay).

I'm not sure how to answer you. I suppose what you're doing is a sort of prelude to learning and playing bebop, like wanting to buy, say, a car and doing lots of research into the pros and cons of various makes and models before buying.

There are books which are universally recognised as being effective, like the David Baker 'How To Play Bebop' series which other posters have recommended.

Apart from that, probably most posters here have their own learning stories to tell. Grahambop is a very good bona fide bebop player (which I am not) and he's said he just got stuck in and got it any way he could. Where there's a will... etc.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

It'll do in English because most people will understand it, although technically it's French with an accent - passé - which is also how it's pronounced (passay).

I'm not sure how to answer you. I suppose what you're doing is a sort of prelude to learning and playing bebop, like wanting to buy, say, a car and doing lots of research into the pros and cons of various makes and models before buying.

There are books which are universally recognised as being effective, like the David Baker 'How To Play Bebop' series which other posters have recommended.

Apart from that, probably most posters here have their own learning stories to tell. Grahambop is a very good bona fide bebop player (which I am not) and he's said he just got stuck in and got it any way he could. Where there's a will... etc.

if I were 14 all over again I might be in a better position to try this and that for 10 years and see what happens. But I’m not and its not how I’m wired anyway. Efficiency and effectiveness is my bag, and has been since I was a kid. Of course, this is art so isn’t that definitive.

I have David Baker’s books. “Universally recognized to be effective?” I didn’t see any of the resident pros say that. And those books are “all instruments” books, not guitar, so leave much application to the guitarist practitioner. Nevertheless I plan to use them regardless of what comes up in this thread, but… thanks?

I think I got out of this thread what I wanted, per the thoughtful and sincere replies of some guys who have devoted much more of their lives to this art than I. I hope you got what you wanted as well. Off to practice….

[grahambop]

I think I would agree that learning bop improv is a good foundation, even if you want play a more contemporary style, because I think it still underpins a lot of jazz. It’s still my basic style I suppose, but I’ve also been digging into Jerry Bergonzi stuff, pentatonics, McCoy Tyner etc. recently, trying to add that into the ‘bag’.

I reckon if I was starting now, I would probably study the Barry Harris ‘improv/line-building’ stuff, what I’ve seen of it ties in well with the real-life stuff I learned from the records. I suspect it would have speeded up the whole process.

If you look at the youtube channel ‘Things I learned from Barry Harris’, you should get a good idea of what it’s about. Bear in mind Barry had another system for chords/comping etc. (the sixth-diminished stuff) so you may want to focus only on the line-improv stuff at first.

[GuyBoden]

if I were 14 all over again I might be in a better position to try this and that for 10 years and see what happens. But I’m not and its not how I’m wired anyway. Efficiency and effectiveness is my bag, and has been since I was a kid. Of course, this is art so isn’t that definitive.

I have David Baker’s books. “Universally recognized to be effective?” I didn’t see any of the resident pros say that. And those books are “all instruments” books, not guitar, so leave much application to the guitarist practitioner. Nevertheless I plan to use them regardless of what comes up in this thread, but… thanks?

I think I got out of this thread what I wanted, per the thoughtful and sincere replies of some guys who have devoted much more of their lives to this art than I. I hope you got what you wanted as well. Off to practice….

If you are seriously wanting to progress quickly, then I think that getting personal lessons from a good pro Bebop Guitar Teacher online would be the quickest and most efficient way to progress.

[Reg]

Hey Eva? Generally most of this depends on what or where you want to go with your playing.

If your normal. whatever that is, and just want to enjoy and add something to help expand your life etc... Your approach sounds great. If you want to be able to perform and be able to entertain at a level that reflects playing in a jazz style. That's very different.

Long story ... short. If you don't get your technical skills... chops together. It really doesn't make any difference how you approach learning how to play... it's not going to happen.

Getting your skills together also usually implies... comping skills. That's what we as guitarist... do most of the time.

As far as advice.... you need to kind of have that 1st point above together.

Kind of a simple test as far as skill level .... play a few bebop tunes in Db at a med. tempo... 220. the soloing should still be easy.... but how's your coming.

[mr. beaumont]

The stuff that actually helped my playing (in no particular order):

1. Getting my butt kicked weekly by a great piano player who had been playing jazz for 50 years

2. Learning a bunch of tunes, for stretches, forcing myself to internalize a new tune every week

3. Copping licks from players I like (not necessarily whole solos)

4. Listening and singing solos along with recordings

5. Arranging tunes for solo guitar, even if I wasn't actually going to play the song that way

6. Reducing melodies for guides and reducing chords into harmonic "environments"

7. Stopping thinking about chords and scales as completely different things


All of this will be outlined in my pamphlet "How to NOT suck at jazz in only 10 years*"

*if you actually work at it

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I think I would agree that learning bop improv is a good foundation, even if you want play a more contemporary style, because I think it still underpins a lot of jazz. It’s still my basic style I suppose, but I’ve also been digging into Jerry Bergonzi stuff, pentatonics, McCoy Tyner etc. recently, trying to add that into the ‘bag’.

I reckon if I was starting now, I would probably study the Barry Harris ‘improv/line-building’ stuff, what I’ve seen of it ties in well with the real-life stuff I learned from the records. I suspect it would have speeded up the whole process.

If you look at the youtube channel ‘Things I learned from Barry Harris’, you should get a good idea of what it’s about. Bear in mind Barry had another system for chords/comping etc. (the sixth-diminished stuff) so you may want to focus only on the line-improv stuff at first.

Big thanks!

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

If you are seriously wanting to progress quickly, then I think that getting personal lessons from a good pro Bebop Guitar Teacher online would be the quickest and most efficient way to progress.

Thanks. Can't think of anybody better suited than Barry Greene.

[Lionelsax]

Just a question : does it sound like bop ?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Kind of a simple test as far as skill level .... play a few bebop tunes in Db at a med. tempo... 220. the soloing should still be easy.... but how's your coming.

Thanks Reg. I'm working a little bit with Jazz/Blues, and then plan to move on to Rhythm Changes in Greg Fishman's Jazz Guitar Etudes book (Same with Joe Pass, Barry Grene and others' materials. Of course, Joe covered Blues and Rhythm Changes in his "style" book that everyone has).

Fishman's lines are very cool though. He's a sax player so these "Jazz Guitar Etudes" are really just bop heavy sax solos with tab. Some parts are NOT guitar friendly - like shifting WAY out of position in the middle of a fast phrase, etc. They admit the sax/guitar difference in the book.

First tune is "Halsted Street". Tempo is 208. I actually play it faster than that but it's a little bit sloppy so I wouldn't call it "easy" yet. But I'll be able to do it. I actually have done it but let it slide, and am now re-entering the fray.

Here's a look at the first Blues and first Rhythm Changes etudes in the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bJicv5bSCo

[Reg]

Thanks Reg. I'm working a little bit with Jazz/Blues, and then plan to move on to Rhythm Changes in Greg Fishman's Jazz Guitar Etudes book (Same with Joe Pass, Barry Grene and others' materials. Of course, Joe covered Blues and Rhythm Changes in his "style" book that everyone has).

Fishman's lines are very cool though. He's a sax player so these "Jazz Guitar Etudes" are really just bop heavy sax solos with tab. Some parts are NOT guitar friendly - like shifting WAY out of position in the middle of a fast phrase, etc. They admit the sax/guitar difference in the book.

First tune is "". Tempo is 208. I actually play it faster than that but it's a little bit sloppy so I wouldn't call it "easy" yet. But I'll be able to do it. I actually have done it but let it slide, and am now re-entering the fray.

Here's a look at the first Blues and first Rhythm Changes etudes in the book.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bJicv5bSCo

Cool ...so a little stiff and was in Bb how about Db and like not something rehearsed. Just play ... Like I was saying playing jazz or in a jazz style isn't one chorus of rehearsed or memorized ... yes we play heads, but usually you take at least 2 or 3 choruses .... and then you'll comp for 20 more LOL.

Don't take my comments wrong... you sound great.. and I'm just trying to let you know what playing jazz is. You need chops before you really start. Lousy technique can work when one practices it over and over... but you'll end up with.... lousy technique.

I looked at one of Fishmans ... Halsted Blues... vids... was in Eb and yea.... very cool lines, You can hear jazz blues all through it. And the comping was in great pocket.... sounds like gig I played yesterday. Had two saxes sit in... one from east coast and one from west....anyway best of luck.

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Cool ...so a little stiff and was in Bb how about Db and like not something rehearsed. Just play ... Like I was saying playing jazz or in a jazz style isn't one chorus of rehearsed or memorized ... yes we play heads, but usually you take at least 2 or 3 choruses .... and then you'll comp for 20 more LOL.

Don't take my comments wrong... you sound great.. and I'm just trying to let you know what playing jazz is. You need chops before you really start. Lousy technique can work when one practices it over and over... but you'll end up with.... lousy technique.

I looked at one of Fishmans ... Halsted Blues... vids... was in Eb and yea.... very cool lines, You can hear jazz blues all through it. And the comping was in great pocket.... sounds like gig I played yesterday. Had two saxes sit in... one from east coast and one from west....anyway best of luck.

I hope you don't think that video is of me, lol. It's Greg Fishman's collaborator, pro jazz guitarist and educator Mike Allemana. He had to sync with Fishman's sax.

He played Halsted Street (Blues) then State Street (Rhythm Changes) Two choruses on the first and one on the second. The book keeps going with a variety of tune types including more blues and rhythm changes. It gets harder and the solos/etudes get longer.

Anyway, these etudes fall into the category of "Imitate" for the student, while Assimilate and Innovate are follow-on steps. Do you see value in "Imitate"? (I do)

[Bobby Timmons]

This has also been a goal of mine. Getting bebop melody down is pretty important for getting your jazz playing sounding authentic. I feel I've achieved it recently.

No brainers are examining and internalizing the music, and BH. BH is real elegant and accurate.

What made everything click for me on the raw structure side of things was: scales, arps, intervals, chromatics. I feel this isn't really taught anywhere, but I think it's extremely important to have both the real music side of things - listening, vocab, etc - and the theory side - where you have a raw base of what to draw off of - so you can be creative.

If you practice them individually and make them into exercises on the changes to the tune, then combine them into ideas for over the changes to the tune, and use your music intuition from listening and vocab, it results in accurate sounding jazz melody.

Scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics are the only possible shapes melody can take. So if you use that as your theory base, it will be way more authentic than only using 1 or 2 of them like is usually taught, or imo just trying to wing it.

[Christian Miller]

I think I would agree that learning bop improv is a good foundation, even if you want play a more contemporary style, because I think it still underpins a lot of jazz. It’s still my basic style I suppose, but I’ve also been digging into Jerry Bergonzi stuff, pentatonics, McCoy Tyner etc. recently, trying to add that into the ‘bag’.

I reckon if I was starting now, I would probably study the Barry Harris ‘improv/line-building’ stuff, what I’ve seen of it ties in well with the real-life stuff I learned from the records. I suspect it would have speeded up the whole process.

If you look at the youtube channel ‘Things I learned from Barry Harris’, you should get a good idea of what it’s about. Bear in mind Barry had another system for chords/comping etc. (the sixth-diminished stuff) so you may want to focus only on the line-improv stuff at first.

i second this. There’s also a book - Talk Jazz - by Roni Ben Hur, a well known NYC bop guitarist who studied and recorded with Barry that contains a great syllabus for single note line building taken directly from Barry’s method

[grahambop]

I have the Talk Jazz Guitar book by Roni Ben Hur, from what I’ve read I believe it’s shorter (and cheaper?) than the ‘Talk Jazz’ book because he doesn’t write out the studies in all keys, just some of them. Also I assume it’s more guitar-based.

I’ve only really skimmed through it so far, it does look quite detailed i.e. all the half step rules are there, loads of scale and arp lines etc.

[Christian Miller]

Why not learn real music that you could play on gigs instead?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

This is only one thing, not everything that I'm doing, if that was directed at me.

But I'll admit - I'd rather work out on bop than play Funny Valentine.

[ragman1]

And who the hell's Eva?

[mr. beaumont]

I had been taking the 4Eva as a take on "forever."

Like on my tattoo that says Charlene 4-Eva. My wife Vanessa hates that one.

[ragman1]

"forever."

Maybe, maybe not...

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

Lol, is it that cryptic?

[Jazzjourney4Eva]

I had been taking the 4Eva as a take on "forever."

Like on my tattoo that says Charlene 4-Eva. My wife Vanessa hates that one.

Can't imagine why.