Generic Question - How do you Improvise?

[mr. beaumont]

Oh, in the secret byways of enharmony, I felt quite pleased with myself when I found this.

Standard harmonic minor chords are (in C)
Cm(maj7) Dm7b5 Ebmaj7#5 Fm7 G7 Abmaj7 Bo7 right?

Well.... you can sub in the B for a C in all the chords that have a C by calling it a Cb! Magic

C Eb G B --> Cb Eb G Cb = Cb+ = B+ (by aug symmetry obv)
D Ab F C --> D Ab F B = Do7 (by dim symmetry obv)
F A C Eb --> F A Cb Eb = Fm7b5 - extremely useful for II V I's - often considered a V altered scale thing
And my favourite
Ab C Eb G --> Ab Cb Eb G = Abm(maj7)

So it turns out two of the chords I always associated with the altered scale - Fm7b5 and the Abm(maj7) are actually hidden in the C harmonic minor scale. Which is nice.

Well I thought it was cool maybe everyone knows this haha.

Mix it up with the natural minor and you get most of the commonly used altered sounds. The Ab melodic minor is not a big step from there.

It all seems more organic somehow when I think of it like this.

Now that's THEORY!

[John A.]

I don't think this relates to my post?

It's OK. It's pretty niche haha.

BTW yes indeed, the Warne Marsh two octave scales are hip. I like dominant II an awful lot
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8 b9 b10 11 12 13
A great 13b9(#11) sound that isn't half-whole

But since Warne (maybe Lennie too) constructed these as a m(maj7) glued to the 5, b7 or b9 of a dominant chord, it all works a bit smoother somehow. The 10 is still a b11 in Dominant III, just saying. ENHARMONY FAIL. (It's fine.)

I thought you were saying that different enharmonies for the same pitches yields functionally different scales, in your examples one that relates to b7b5, not alt7, and one that requires two 2's and fails to capture the functional essence of altering upper chord structures? Anyway, I was responding to that, whether I got your intent right or not.

[Christian Miller]

I use the first and call it the altered dominant scale (beware of Greeks bearing scales). When I practice alt patterns and harmonized scales that’s how I conceptualize it. It’s only a m7b5 scale if you think of it as the 7th mode of mel min a half step up, but I don’t, so I find that to be a non-issue

Or you can avoid all that and spell it 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 b9 #9 b12 b13. Cause who says a scale can only be 7 pitches within an octave? And avoiding the perfect 4 and 5 is for wusses.

That honest to FSM truth is that I mostly I think of altered dom7 as extra notes and not as replacement notes. But I explore other ways of thinking (e.g. the Mike Stern book)

Oh FWIW, I usually think of the altered scale as voice leading in a can in a straight ahead II V I context. You can resolve all the notes neatly into a target major. The one that's a bit weak is the G, so you can always pop in an F# there to improve it, and then after respelling you get Db mixolydian or the tritone dominant, which between it and C major pentatonic contain all the notes of the chromatic scale

C D E G A
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb(B)

You can use the altered scale in a more colourisitc way too, but that's another one.

[Christian Miller]

I thought you were saying that different enharmonies for the same pitches yields functionally different scales, in your examples one that doesn't relate to b7b5, not alt7, and one that requires two 2's and fails to capture the functional essence of altering upper chord structures? Anyway, I was responding to that, whether I got your intent right or not.

No that's what I was saying, I was too dim to see the connection.

The upper structure of the altered scale is kind of a complete mess, so yes the Warne scale is more logical with the natural fifth. I think I understand now. While the enharmony is still not quite 'right' in Dominant III, you at least have a stack of thirds you can build on the root, which you can't do with the standard altered scale.

1 3 5 b7 b9 "10"(b11) b13 15

Altered scale
1 b11 b5 b7 ... errr... help!

In practice this stuff doesn't really bother people I think haha

[Christian Miller]

One nice thing about the Warne Dom III scale is it also contains the o7 chord, which the altered scale doesn't and is kind of important to bop lines. So the structure.

G B D F Ab B Eb G

All of which belong to.... C harmonic minor! (Gmixob9b13 or whatever they call it these days) - but no C... The C pops up the first octave of the scale but not the second... But of course the G altered scale/Ab melodic minor has that characteristic Db instead...

You get, going up the thirds

G7
Bo7
Do7
Fm7b5
Abm(maj7)

Anyway, you know all this shit anyway. I find it interesting, and yeah probably it is more of a sensible scale than the vanilla altered in a weird way. The Tristano school guys had things pretty worked out..

[Reg]

Wow... some interesting posts.

Here's a PDF of another view of Altered. More for Dorian than Aeolian. They are different and I guess that could be a good use of how theory might help. I know I can hear the difference and will play accordingly.

Again if you have your technical skill together... practical or using theory when playing is pretty simple. Personally use of theory is about the Reference.

But how I improvise... is generally about whom I'm working with.

[paulkogut]

I don't think this relates to my post?

It's OK. It's pretty niche haha.

BTW yes indeed, the Warne Marsh two octave scales are hip. I like dominant II an awful lot
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8 b9 b10 11 12 13
A great 13b9(#11) sound that isn't half-whole

But since Warne (maybe Lennie too) constructed these as a m(maj7) glued to the 5, b7 or b9 of a dominant chord, it all works a bit smoother somehow. The 10 is still a b11 in Dominant III, just saying. ENHARMONY FAIL. (It's fine.)

The Warne Marsh '2 octave scale' is a good example of "analyzed by theory =/= created by (same) theory." If I heard some lines out of this 'scale', I would most likely hear ir as mixing G7 and Dm7b5, or G7-G7susb9,, and maybe bring up terms like Mixolydian and Locrian natural 2 if talking to a student...


PK

[rpjazzguitar]

"implied enharmonic"? Isn't that just a fancy way of saying 'I know I look like I wrote it down wrong, but I know it was wrong, honest?' Sure, bro it was implied. Lol
It changes the meaning of the scale whether it is spelt
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 - the super locrian (a m7b5 scale)
and
1 b2 #2 3 4 b5 b6 b7 - the altered scale (a 7b5 scale)
.

For the point I was making, concerning whatever it is on the fretboard that falls between D and E (calling it an Eb is, apparently, woefully inadequate and I'm no longer certain whether it's a note or not), I thought I was quite clear.

And, who knew the altered scale has 8 notes? I always thought it was 7.

[Christian Miller]

The Warne Marsh '2 octave scale' is a good example of "analyzed by theory =/= created by (same) theory." If I heard some lines out of this 'scale', I would most likely hear ir as mixing G7 and Dm7b5, or G7-G7susb9,, and maybe bring up terms like Mixolydian and Locrian natural 2 if talking to a student...


PK

Sure. It sounds great though.

I would personally just say go from G dominant to F melodic minor but I’m a basic bitch.

[pauln]

And, who knew the altered scale has 8 notes? I always thought it was 7.

Omit the typo 4...

[Christian Miller]

For the point I was making, concerning whatever it is on the fretboard that falls between D and E (calling it an Eb is, apparently, woefully inadequate and I'm no longer certain whether it's a note or not), I thought I was quite clear.

And, who knew the altered scale has 8 notes? I always thought it was 7.

haha that errant 4… you win!

Truth is jazz has always had a really fast and loose relationship with enharmony. Classical theory is quite anal retentive about as you can imagine, and that’s where I get it from.

Things like augmented sixths that jazzers would think of as dominant chords but are written differently because they resolve differently (Ab C Eb F# instead of Ab C Eb Gb for example) and theoretically understood differently is quite alien to jazz practice where we aren’t as concerned with the specific niceties of preparation and resolution of dissonances anyway.

Anyway if you play a telecaster, it’s obviously D#

[mr. beaumont]

Anyway if you play a telecaster, it’s obviously D#

You mean C capo 1.

[Christian Miller]

Surely I can't be the only person who sees this sort of thing and who doesn't feel their brains dribbling out their ears. Gb on D7, but then next bar C# on Eb7. Gah, what? WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT??????



I wasn't even looking for an example, I was just researching a video.

[mr. beaumont]

Surely I can't be the only person who sees this sort of thing and who doesn't feel their brains dribbling out their ears. Gb on D7, but then next bar C# on Eb7. Gah, what? WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT??????



I wasn't even looking for an example, I was just researching a video.

Yeah, that would definitely make me angry.

Unless of course I was illustrating using an A7 idea on said Eb7...

Oh shit, im using theory. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, that would definitely make me angry.

Unless of course I was illustrating using an A7 idea on said Eb7...

Oh shit, im using theory. Nothing to see here. Carry on.

Shush

[Christian Miller]

alternatively, technically the Eb7 here is acting as an augmented sixth, so maybe he's just being very classical for that bar.

Of course it doesn't explain the first bar....

[rpjazzguitar]

Even I'm aware that it's the kind of thing my piano playing colleague with a degree in composition freaks out about.

But, if I saw it on the stand, I'd just play it and save my outrage for something that actually makes playing music significantly more difficult, like missing pages, badly running ink, missing repeats, incorrect chords, pencilled-in visual noise, random numbers of bars per line and so forth.

Here's a barely musically literate almost-justification for some of the first two bars.

Ask a jazz player to name the tritone sub for D7, most are going to say Ab, not G#. You get a different answer, I think, if you ask about teh #11. And, no, I don't know which one theory says the people-in-need-of-a-laxative should use.

The Gb should be an F#, by similar logic, but then it mixes up the phrase. You end up with a sharp on the F and a flat on the A. That might be distracting. So, it does make sense to use the G# on the D7, but I can understand why somebody may have made this faux pas.

Most people will tell you that there's an Db in an Eb7, not a C#. But, the C# is ascending from a C in this instance. I've heard, vaguely, that it makes sense to use sharps in ascending line. Somehow, I've managed to learn to read without knowing these rules. I probably should get a thin textbook on the subject, if they come in that thickness.

After that we have some courtesy accidentals (do you call a natural sign a courtesy accidental?) which probably add to the confusion but also suggest that the writer knew it should have been an F# in the previous bar. My willingness to stretch things to justify this passage fails at this point and, obviously, I apologize for this entire post.

I wondered if this piece was written electronically in a different key and then transposed electronically with primitive software. But, I couldn't find consistency in that regard.

[pauln]

Even with all the efforts of the classical composer, the artist may improvise...

"Style is the way in which the singer or player executes the music
notated by the composer. If (he or she) gives faithfully what is written
in the notes, signs, and words of art, this is called the correct style;
if the player adds ideas, and if they are capable of intellectually
animating the subject in such a way that the listener may discover and
participate in the composer's intentions, this is called a beautiful
style, in which correction, sentiment and elegance are united."
-Luis Spohr
Composer, violinist, conductor, practiced with Beethoven, invented the violin
chinrest and the orchestral rehearsal mark, one of the first to use a baton

[mr. beaumont]

Improvising in classical music is like me adding water to the bottle of Dawn after my kids let their oatmeal bowl sit in the sink since 7am without a rinse out.

(I don't know if I actually believe that, I just had to DO that)

[kris]

Surely I can't be the only person who sees this sort of thing and who doesn't feel their brains dribbling out their ears. Gb on D7, but then next bar C# on Eb7. Gah, what? WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT??????



I wasn't even looking for an example, I was just researching a video.

Maybe this should be considered a misspelling...?
instead of Gb write F# - is the third of the chord D7.
instead of C# write Db -is the septime of the chord Eb7

[Christian Miller]

Maybe this should be considered a misspelling...?
instead of Gb write F# - is the third of the chord D7.
instead of C# write Db -is the septime of the chord Eb7

Well, yeah

[Christian Miller]

Improvising in classical music is like me adding water to the bottle of Dawn after my kids let their oatmeal bowl sit in the sink since 7am without a rinse out.

(I don't know if I actually believe that, I just had to DO that)

What is Dawn? Is it a product or were you being poetic?

[pauln]

What is Dawn? Is it a product or were you being poetic?

[bako]

If you stack an altered scale in 4th's instead of 3rd's:

D Gb C F Bb Eb Ab

Gb is spelled wrong but heard as F# ma3 and #9 technically speaking is spelled E#...
#9's are often spelled as b3's....

The ears hear the truth. These are just shortcomings in using a 7 letter system to rep for 12 notes with notes having multiple names. This system is at times be used elegant as in describing composer's intentions with aug 6th chords, etc. Sometimes it is not. A sound is not at fault for it's awkward spelling.

[paulkogut]

Surely I can't be the only person who sees this sort of thing and who doesn't feel their brains dribbling out their ears. Gb on D7, but then next bar C# on Eb7. Gah, what? WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT??????



I wasn't even looking for an example, I was just researching a video.

Some sort of 4/4 "All Blues"? Honestly, the notation doesn't bother me all that much. For me, it matters more that a line agrees with itself more than if it agrees with the chord symbol. Looking at the first two measures, I see a clear Ab7-A7 idea spelled out, then in the second half of the second measure, it feels like the start of a blues phrase in G rather than an altered line on D7, and notating a blues tonic is always a little up for grabs between #4,b5,#9,b3 etc...

PK