How Well do you know your WORKSPACE?

[NSJ]

DO MOST GUITARISTS REALLY KNOW THEIR WORKSPACE? I remember watching a video lesson by Bruce Foreman, where he described large sections or the guitar as “No Man’s Land”. I think, many times, when people are having “theory” problems or intellectual battles with the music, often, the problem is more concrete. They don’t know the instrument as well as they should. It’s a lifelong endeavor of progressive mastery.


In the intro to Alan Kingstone’s excellent book, “The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar”, the section entitled “The Guitar in Jazz:”, Alan writes , as follows:


“The guitar is very versatile, highly expressive, portable , colorful, exciting, gentle, and at times frustrating musical instrument. It’s simple enough to play the guitar simply. it’s more challenging to create the spectrum of moods the great jazz pianists have…I’ve come to realize some of the guitar’s vast potential for expression in jazz as well as its clear advantages in positional playing. On the other hand, the guitar’s shortcomings include close voicings and the difficulty to accompany oneself”.


I did some summary, not-exhaustive calculations on the difficulties and challenges when one goes beyond the simplicity of “playing the guitar simply”—->


With all the various string sets, In root position and with inversions, one should have 28 different ways to play each 7th chord on a 6 string and 36 different ways to play each 7th chord on an 8 string. In root position and with inversions, one should have 12 different ways to play each CLOSE-VOICED triad on a regular six string guitar and 15 different ways to play each CLOSE-VOICED triad on an 8 string. In root position and with inversions, one should have 12 different ways to play each OPEN-VOICED triad. on a regular six string guitar and AT LEAST 15 different ways to play each OPEN-VOICED triad on an 8 string. (We will define OPEN voiced triads as (a) 1-5-3; ((b) 3-1-5; (c)5-3-1.


Thus, at the very least, one should have 52 different ways to play and voice 7th chords (with inversions) and close-voiced and spread triads on a six string guitar. On an 8 string guitar, one should have at least 66 different ways to play and voice 7th chords (with inversions) and close-voiced and spread triads.


Of course, to intellectually understand something does not correlate with knowledge. Knowledge requires the practical step being able to DO IT., flawlessly, as if it is practically second nature. As a student, I learned that a great teacher imparts in the student the desire to a lifetime of learning; where the student can become their own teacher, in a kind of way, by knowing what they need to improve, organizing resources accordingly towards that learning, being efficient and diligent and patient with the process, building on simple things with an eye for the big picture, seeing how it all fits in.


Furthermore: just because we intellectually understand something doesn’t mean we know it; we only know it by doing it; we have to do it a million times, correctly, though constant repetition, over and over again.

[ragman1]

How Well do you know your WORKSPACE?

A desk with a laptop on it, a clock, a pen, a few bits of paper, a cup of coffee generally and something to blow my nose on. So quite well, I suppose!

It’s a lifelong endeavor of progressive mastery.

Whoops, I almost read that as progressive misery :-)

[Reg]

hey NSJ ... yea you need to be able to play any voicing, either sight reading, lead line or the feel or sound created by different intervals within a voicing. And obviously depending on harmonic context... the melodic movement with voice leading implies harmonic motion.... line cliches etc...

But typically when playing jazz the inter space between the top note or lead line ... and the lowest note is,

More of dealing with types of intervals... which almost become more important than actual notes. (chord tones etc).

Again the lead line or melody like line created on top, although as ones become a better player, that line can move around within the voicing, but is still a single element of comping, is almost always most important.

The learning of all possible voicings is more about just becoming aware of the fretboard, which will lead to freedom to play what one wants or what is needed in different contexts.

Which leads to one of the better uses of CST.... that of becoming aware of all the possibilities of note collections that can be and have been applied or used when playing jazz tunes or in jazz styles. That old.... the fretboard is really just one large pattern that adjusts to whatever harmonic reference one chooses.

A nat min., A harmonic min, MM etc... the fretboard becomes one large pattern from which one can play whatever they want anywhere and still imply harmonically, (or melodically)... what ever they want... or whatever someone else wants while playing.

And again that's why I've always pushed.... get your technical skills together first. The understands, theories etc... will come much easier after.
Yea I know my workspace well, LOL and It's not a lifetime project... some just make it so by choice.

[Christian Miller]

Oh no, it’s the DuStY eNd

i have found the most useful way to understand the neck scalically has been to get very good at joining small cells together. That way you can easily come up with scale and arpeggio fingerings that encompass the whole neck.

im not a fan of conventional positions on the whole. I know them though, and Caged and 3 nps.

As far as the drops and the triads go that’s just the sort of thing you have to practice if you want to master fretboard harmony. You can dress it up in different clothes and processes but it amounts to the same grind. Everyone finds it daunting at first. I find it helps me to be a glass half full guy.

Start with what’s most useful….

[Christian Miller]

(PDF) Ben-monder-lessons | Boschi Gino - Academia.edu

[mr. beaumont]

At what point can you start playing music?

[NSJ]

At what point can you start playing music?

Hopefully every time you pick up the instrument. PS: someone named “Ed Sheeran “ (never heard his music) is playing Soldiers Field.

I googled “Ed Sheeran Signature Telecaster”.

[jazznylon]

I know every possible 3 note chord voicings and in all inversions. 4 note chord voicings though I haven't bothered. There is simply too many of them. Therefore I only learned the most useful ones

[Tal_175]

People make fretboard much more complicated by trying to memorize grips, shapes, and dot patterns up and down the neck. It ends up being a lifetime of spinning wheels in cycles of giving up and restarting fretboard work every 5 years or so.

Fretboard is a simple terrain. It consists of one octave patterns repeated with a slight adjustment for tuning.
- If you make sure you can find a note everywhere on the fretboard (unisons and octaves).
- If you make sure you can instantly find every ascending interval of chromatic scale inside an octave (3rd, b6, #4 etc.).
(You get the descending intervals for free if you visualize the lower octave.)

Now you can play any scale or chord voicing anywhere on the fretboard and really know what you're actually playing (functionally) at any given time. This really actually works. I'm not speaking hypothetically. I can work on tunes, connect scales (any scale), create voicings without being bogged down with brain hurting memory games as I used to.

Another advantage of this is that you can start working on a tune (comping and playing the changes) right away without spending 5-10 years on fretboard internalization first (which unfortunately I did before switching to this simple approach).

Of course you have to know intervallic scale and chord construction really well for this to work.

[Christian Miller]

someone named “Ed Sheeran “ (never heard his music) is playing Soldiers Field.

you will have heard his music cos he “borrowed” it…

EDIT haha yea the sig tele very good

[NSJ]

This is not an overly intellectual thread. I’ve done a lot of work, and I realize that when I play a chord solo, many times its parallel motion, using one shape, usually drop 2 top 4 strings, drop 2 4 inner strings, drop 3 starting on string 6, triads top 3 strings, triads string 2-3-4.

That’s a shitty and too small of a palliate. I need to improve.

[Marinero]

"They don’t know the instrument as well as they should." NSJ

Hi, N,
Agreed. The guitar is an instrument that is easy to play poorly. Few guitarists, including those who are "advanced" have explored the tonal possibilities of their individual instrument. They rely on their amplifiers to create their sound and disregard their guitar's "personality." This translates to a generic sound many guitarists possess. Few know the entire fretboard and use it in their music.

"Of course, to intellectually understand something does not correlate with knowledge. Knowledge requires the practical step being able to DO IT." NSJ

So, there are some posters on this Forum who reach near-orgasmic levels of pleasure reciting their knowledge of Music Theory. Now, I have no problems with NOG--"Near Orgasmic Experience' however, it doesn't relate to performance abilities and may be a detriment, in some cases, to creativity. The theory is only useful when it allows a musician to sing his ideas through his instrument in a non-formulaic manner. When it becomes a Math equation, it loses its magic and musicality. Most contemporary Jazzers are guilty of this practice and few possess a real musical voice in comparison with those who played in the Golden Age of Jazz.

"Furthermore: just because we intellectually understand something doesn’t mean we know it; we only know it by doing it; we have to do it a million times, correctly, though constant repetition, over and over again." NSJ

Yes.
Marinero

[Christian Miller]

So who are ‘they’ and what should be the nature of their punishment?

- to be told off by their guitar teachers?
- to spend the rest of their lives playing cover versions of rock songs they like?
- To spend their lives unaware that people are judging them on JGO?

i don’t really get threads like this. Maybe people just like to feel good about themselves for doing work. But here’s the thing - everyone I know who can really play the instrument has sunk a lot of time on it. Conversely if I struggle with something it’s cos I haven’t practiced it throughly.

I do all of this because it makes me happy to become a better player. I don’t expect everyone to be interested in this type of thing and I’m not particularly interested in making judgements about whether some ‘they’ have done the work or not. People play the way they play for their own reasons. None of my business unless I’m your teacher.

if on the other hand your level of knowledge and dedication is something you use to feel superior to other players, I think that probably says something else. Among other things, perhaps you should hang out with some better players.

Pros in my experience, get on with it.

[NSJ]

So who are ‘they’ and what should be the nature of their punishment?

- to be told off by their guitar teachers?
- to spend the rest of their lives playing cover versions of rock songs they like?
- To spend their lives unaware that people are judging them on JGO?

i don’t really get threads like this. Maybe people just like to feel good about themselves for doing work. But here’s the thing - everyone I know who can really play the instrument has sunk a lot of time on it. Conversely if I struggle with something it’s cos I haven’t practiced it throughly.

I do all of this because it makes me happy to become a better player. I don’t expect everyone to be interested in this type of thing and I’m not particularly interested in making judgements about whether some ‘they’ have done the work or not. People play the way they play for their own reasons.

if on the other hand your level of knowledge and dedication is something you use to feel superior to other players, I think that probably says something else than you think. Pros get on with it.

I think about the best of all time, Charlie Parker, aspiring, at the peak of his powers, to go study at the Sorbonne. I of course echo your position and was not making judgments. I want to improve all the time, we have to have the right type of knowledge and inflammation that fits in with our goals, the time to practice and integrate the information, the desire to never be satisfied.

I haven’t been on these boards for years, but the BH thread inspired me, in a way, to reassess if I’ve been too complacent. I have been. You always want to break through and add new elements to playing.

[Christian Miller]

I think about the best of all time, Charlie Parker, aspiring, at the peak of his powers, to go study at the Sorbonne. I of course echo your position and was not making judgments. I want to improve all the time, we have to have the right type of knowledge and inflammation that fits in with our goals, the time to practice and integrate the information, the desire to never be satisfied.

I haven’t been on these boards for years, but the BH thread inspired me, in a way, to reassess if I’ve been too complacent. I have been. You always want to break through and add new elements to playing.

Got you.

Yeah, I think the best thing you can do for any serious student sometimes is to show them the true scale of the mountain. In whatever way you can. Once you really see it it’s impossible to get complacent

you also have to judge the right time to do it. Do it too early and a student may just want to give up. (Otoh for those who just want to play a little music, totally inappropriate…)

[NSJ]

The other thing I’m working on to improve single note lines that is beyond the scope of this board—learning various phrasing aspects to Indian classical music, basically the meends, gamakas, sweras, and proper slides. Not to learn become a Carnatic musician. That will be impossible. But it’s exciting to see what I can borrow from that tradition.

I don’t know anyone other than me, exploring that, while, at the same time, trying too see the guitar as a little piano. And no, you can’t play these Indian ornamentations on a piano! Impossible. But you can on a guitar.

Lots to work on. It’s exciting.

[wolflen]

on many of my replies on this forum.."..learn triads and four note chords on all strings sets in all positions in ALL keys.."

and from there..the harmonized scales those chords belong..

now the thing is to use this vast array of harmonic knowledge in a melodic way..thus..songs/compositions

few of us will master - not the instrument..but music..but for some my self included..the innate need to discover and explore music and its alluring mysteries

keeps the desire to learn just one more secret and know how to apply it in many ways..this is improvisation in its pure form..learning something new and incorporate it in what we already

know..in as many ways as possible..so that it becomes part of our musical being and is not just a visitor

for me..this has been a life journey..with all the variations of any love affair

[NSJ]

One of the things that motivated to think about this was someone asked about a *simplified* approach to BH, from a theoretical point of view. I surmised, after a while, the fact of finding BH’s voicings on the guitar-, i.e, the notes on the guitar in a practical way- was something that should be worked on.

[Marinero]

"So who are ‘they’ and what should be the nature of their punishment?" C. Miller

Hi, C,
Their punishment is that a necessary ingredient to musical growth does not exist today for anyone other than the "big names"--namely, the opportunity to play live with other musicians for pay. Musicians, unless hardcore soloists, need the camaraderie of other musicians to hone their skills and grow. And, that's very difficult to do unless an entrepreneur wants live music and is willing to pay for it. Harris is correct: "Jazz is Dead." It has become a parlor art with a very esoteric audience. So, what does a serious guitarist do? Hone your skills and play solo where you have a better chance to get a gig. Those jobs still exist and if you get in the right place it can be lucrative when you factor in your tips, ability to sell CD's, lessons, private party bookings, etc. Life has never been fair for most musicians . . . they are truly the "poetes maudits."
Marinero

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I think the bottom line is that we each need to have the knowledge, skill and fluency to play whatever we want to play, exactly as we hear it in our heads. The limits of our playing should be those of our imaginations, not those of our knowledge and technical skill.

Wes and Grant said what they wanted to say without knowing all the positions in the Guitarists’ Kama Sutra. Few have truly mastered the entire fretboard’s palette of chords, largely because it wasn’t necessary for them to play beautifully in their own styles.

As for that near-orgasmic experience, I haven’t experienced it myself while playing - but I suspect it could enhance one’s finger vibrato tone.

[NSJ]

I’ll give you a concrete example of how one the very best players could not adopt to a change of workspace. My old teacher was a very close friend of Joe Pass (was a pall bearer at his funeral). He felt Joe, with his finger style “one man orchestra” approach to solo guitar and accompanist, would be very well suited to play 7 string guitar. So, he lent him his own 7 string and Joe agreed to test it out. Eventually, Joe couldn’t adopt musically to the inclusion of the added 7th string, saying it messed with everything he worked his entire life developing.

This is the context why this issue has become paramount to me. I’m playing an 8 string, fanned fret guitar with a cello end pin. Radically different than a six string guitar. When I went to show my guitar to Peter Bernstein after attending his concert in Santa Cruz a few months back, the first thing he said was, “where the hell is the D string”

So this is why I bring up this issue. I’m not an idiot, I know where a lot of these triads and 7th chords and intervals are on the guitar. But it takes a LONG time re-learn a lot of this information and adopt it to the 8 string guitar. In the process of doing so, I thought long an hard how my knowledge of the fingerboard is incomplete. I don’t really know or use drop 2 voicings on the top 4 (EADG) strings; I use the 6 string drop 3 inversions a lot, but hardly use the 5 string drop 3 inversions at all. I don’t really know my drop 2 and 4 at all.

So, given that I am making these radical transitions, might as well not do a half-assed job and make sure I learn all of them, again, (and more!) with this 8 string.

[NSJ]

If we are honest, a lot of players never go beyond root position drop 2s (1563 etc) and root position drop 3s (1635, etc) as their bread and butter 4 note 7th chord voicings, and they generally go up and down, in parallel motion, only. That’s essentially the COWBOY chords of jazz guitar 101.

[tbeltrans]

I’ll give you a concrete example of how one the very best players could not adopt to a change of workspace. My old teacher was a very close friend of Joe Pass (was a pall bearer at his funeral). He felt Joe, with his finger style “one man orchestra” approach to solo guitar and accompanist, would be very well suited to play 7 string guitar. So, he lent him his own 7 string and Joe agreed to test it out. Eventually, Joe couldn’t adopt musically to the inclusion of the added 7th string, saying it messed with everything he worked his entire life developing.

This is the context why this issue has become paramount to me. I’m playing an 8 string, fanned fret guitar with a cello end pin. Radically different than a six string guitar. When I went to show my guitar to Peter Bernstein after attending his concert in Santa Cruz a few months back, the first thing he said was, “where the hell is the D string”

So this is why I bring up this issue. I’m not an idiot, I know where a lot of these triads and 7th chords and intervals are on the guitar. But it takes a LONG time re-learn a lot of this information and adopt it to the 8 string guitar. In the process of doing so, I thought long an hard how my knowledge of the fingerboard is incomplete. I don’t really know or use drop 2 voicings on the top 4 (EADG) strings; I use the 6 string drop 3 inversions a lot, but hardly use the 5 string drop 3 inversions at all. I don’t really know my drop 2 and 4 at all.

So, given that I am making these radical transitions, might as well not do a half-assed job and make sure I learn all of them, again, (and more!) with this 8 string.

This is an interesting thread, with a lot of good points all around. Your comment about Joe Pass and 7 string puts me in good company.

Robert Conti plays 6, 7, and 8 string guitar (preferring 8 string for solo chord melody in particular). In my personal opinion, the man is a genius (check out The Formula for a very practical approach to harmony). He and I talked a fair amount about 7 string some years ago and I was then convinced to get one. I just couldn't get into it. That 7th string just threw me, so while I only met Joe Pass a couple of times and never talked about 7 string with him, I can understand from first hand experience what you described as his experience.

To be clear, I don't aspire to be an all-around jazz musician and my pro playing days ended 40+ years ago. I am perfectly content sitting at home, opening a fakebook, and working out chord melody arrangements of those tunes (i.e. a casual hobbyist). For me, it is like solving some sort of puzzle that has limitless possible solutions without any thought of performing these for other people.

When considering the subject matter of this thread (i.e. the long and wide process of mastering the guitar), we need to take into account the interests, aspirations, and level of desire of the individual players reading and participating in this thread, as other posters have pointed out. The approach to the guitar that NSJ describes here is what my approach to my engineering career was until I retired. It was both an all-consuming hobby/avocation and my profession. I have known many people for whom technology is merely a tool to be used as long as it serves their daily needs, and others who dabble in it as a casual hobby. I recognize that we each have our interests, aspirations, and resulting approaches to whatever we encounter and choose to do with our time.

Having said that, I do think discussions such as this are enlightening to many and inspiring to all who chose to read such a thread. NSJ's posts are always interesting to read.

Tony

[mr. beaumont]

My earlier post comes off as anti-knowledge, which I'm not...so a bit of further explanation.

You've taken on a big task...the 8 string, to the best of my knowledge, has not been mapped like this for jazz, at least in a book you can buy on Amazon. Therefore, the only thing to do is to do it, as they say.

Which I think could be amazing, were it an organic experience...but you unfortunately come to this instrument from a scary place:

You already know how to play the guitar and you understand music.

Which means you know how to streamline the process...which I worry will lead to a lot of practice time becoming charts and graphs and the practical application might be pushed down the road.

Its kind of the difference between WRITING Chord Chemistry and taking that book, working with 3 ideas from it for a month, then going back, taking 3 more, etc.

I guess in short, just make sure you don't feel the need to write the book before you start using it.

[Marinero]

"As for that near-orgasmic experience, I haven’t experienced it myself while playing - but I suspect it could enhance one’s finger vibrato tone." Nevershouldhavesoldit


Be careful, N,
Mommy's gonna be waiting at home for you with that dreaded bar of soap.
Marinero