Stuck always sounding the same

[emanresu]

A little help for me was to switch reading a book and jamming when having a lot of time to ... "practice".
5 min reading a book in silence, then trying to put 100% attention on improvising. It did get better by the evening instead worse (when doing continuos playing).

"Sounding the same" is a bit depressing way to look at this issue. Try as you might, you end up sounding the same eventually

[Bobby Timmons]

^ I do that too. My lessons with Tony are recorded so I'll lie down and watch/listen to some of his demonstrations, then go to the organ and try to implement some of his stuff and repeat.

@ Jimmy blue note, you know, I'm going to have to start doing that, composing solos.

[Rsilver]

Improvisational variety comes from your musical imagination. I suggest you take a tune … Autumn Leaves or whatever … and hear (invent), in your mind, a solo. Can you take it 3 or 4 times through the changes? If so, then you are not really stuck because you have material to play but are probably blocking the flow by thinking about scales, licks you learned, or perhaps just self-critical thoughts while playing. What you want is to play your musical ideas as they occur … by developing great ears and guitar chops to support your ideas.

If on the other hand, you can’t imagine 3 or 4 improvised choruses on a tune such as Autumn Leaves, you need to work on your imagination and on relaxation techniques to get the flow going. A book like Effortless Mastery by Kenny Werner could help. Also, listening to a lot of music develops imagination. Always be soloing in your head!

[j4zz]

Wow, a lot of to and fro going on, but it's all educational I guess

I would like to throw in one other "problem". People say I can sing pretty well, but I cannot stand to listen to myself - a fairly common thing apparently. Well, I have discovered that the same may apply to my improvisational efforts. Probably why I am not impressed with my own recordings

[Gabor]

Sorry, rant coming up!

You know, a lot of this so-called advice makes me mad. For example, we're told to transcribe.

Do you know how long it takes to accurately transcribe a recorded solo? Even if you're good at it? Ages. And beginners, those who need the advice, can't do it. So it's stupid to suggest it.

So I don't bother trying to do the near-impossible and waste a great deal of precious time - time I could be spending doing something actually helpful and constructive. I look at other peoples' transcriptions on YouTube.

A lot of it is for guitar but, equally, a lot of it is for saxophone or, worse, piano. The lines for saxophone, for example, go everywhere because their way of finding notes isn't the same as guitarists. Therefore most of these lines are extremely hard to play, you have to twist your fingers all over the place. There's no point to it.

Look at pro guitar players doing their solos, Wes, Bernstein, Martino, Scofield. Their fingers usually stay in definite places on the neck. Most of their fingering is only the first three fingers, not spidering all over like a lot of amateur enthusiasts do. Watch Wes sometime and see how little he uses his pinky.

So even if we do have a transcribed piece, which in any case is usually particular to the tune being played, can we play it? We basically have to imitate someone else. And can we properly? Not usually, because it's their brain doing it, not ours. What we play has to be intuitive to us, not someone else's playing.

Wanting to be like someone else is silly because we'll never be someone else. Even if we master it it'll always be a poor man's version. So there's very little point to it.

We have to find our own way to play these tunes and this jazz stuff. Not by direct copying but by understanding and then applying the principles involved.

The underlying principles of what-works-with-what is what counts. That we should apply ourselves to. And it's not that difficult. It's a lot simpler and more effective that wasting time following along behind others. Those others have done the work correctly for themselves, no one else, and that goes for any instrument.

How do we find the principles? They're universal, not a great mystery. It's just the usual musical knowledge, the basic stuff, in every decent textbook. It's that simple.

But because we're impatient we always want to find the clever trick, the magic formula, anything to jump the work steps and get to the end as fast as possible. It never works.

So the way to learn is not to imitate but to study, understand, and apply in our own way, a way that's intuitively correct for us, and it'll inevitably refine itself as we go along. And obviously natural ability helps a lot. There's no way out of that, unfortunately.

But listening is good. Absorbing the vibe is good, like learning a language. If there's one thing which will bear good fruit, it's that. I always play better and more authentically after I've listened to something good. It gets into your blood.

I agree, this is a rant.

- playing along with a recorded solo, and wanting to be someone else (musically) are way two different things, you confuse the two. Obviously wanting to be someone else is not useful, and luckily after a short infantile period majority of us recognizes this. However this does not mean, that playing along with different musicians impro and getting the feel is not useful. It is essentially useful.


- you are stating shortcuts newer work, but same time recommending taking a shortcut that instead transcribing from the recording, use other's transcriptions on youtube. You literally encourages the to take shortcut.

- It is not true that transcribing requires time which does not worth it, because no one expected to transcribe a whole impro. Just get a few bars, what catches your ear. Not even mandatory to write it, especially not the rythm, which even it would be written, a must feel from the recording, so having written is optional.

- four finger vs three finger playing are equally adequate. Bernstein prefers three finger, but this choice of his is not the fundation of his musical creativity, so it is probably not useful advice to find musical creativity

[itsmyname]

don't forget that you think you sound always the same can come from the fact that when you play, you always hear you play !

(I'm not saying you're wrong to think this but you have a bias and it's normal so don't be too rude with yourself)

[ragman1]

I agree, Ragman.

Thanks. It's okay, I've taken it down. Overtiredness, probably. I agree, I take small chunks if I like the sound of them too but that involves recording them, slowing them down, and often doing it one note at a time. Plus knowing what the chord behind them is. Of course, pro transcribers have machines to do it with. Different thing.

The rest I agree with too :-)

[ragman1]

- four finger vs three finger playing are equally adequate. Bernstein prefers three finger, but this choice of his is not the fundation of his musical creativity, so it is probably not useful advice to find musical creativity

I don't believe I equated four finger vs three finger playing with musical creativity.

[Jonah]

Soloing, as opposed to noodling, is a compositional process

That's very true.

Lately I often thought about it - much in concern of classical improvization which I also do.

I often think that good improvizer is first of all good composer.

Of course in classical it is more important because you improvize form and being a master of form is much about compositional skills.

But it is great for jazz too.

Even if you compose a relatively conventional jazz standard you will have to work out melody, form, its culminationations etc.

And it will definitely affect your improvization.

Remember what Wes said in one of the interviews, he said that he is mostly concerned about integrity of his solos.
Integrity of a solo is a challenge in jazz with its spontaneous character. And I should say that Wes developed a set of tools to control it.
Many of his solos have very solid structure - and with all this Wes in my opinion is often taken away with the momentary feel, he seems to go quite far often that you begin to thinhk how he would come out of it but I think he also developed tools how to conclude some ideas naturally in that case.

[Tricky Fish]

Some ideas that have helped me, using a looper pedal:

Record a backing track of a familar standard. Put down your guitar and SING a solo / melody. Loop / repeat until you’ve got something interesting, then transcribe it back to guitar.

Record a drone. Just a simple single note. Improvise over this, but pretend to be someone else. Pretend that you are Al di Meola, Ted Green, Yngwie Malmsteen, Paco de Lucia, Joep Beaving, Ravi Shankar, Muddy Waters, Charlie Parker, Steve Gadd, Django, etc

[ragman1]

Wow, a lot of to and fro going on, but it's all educational I guess

I would like to throw in one other "problem". People say I can sing pretty well, but I cannot stand to listen to myself - a fairly common thing apparently. Well, I have discovered that the same may apply to my improvisational efforts. Probably why I am not impressed with my own recordings

Oh, practically no one is impressed with their own recordings. Wes did multi-multi takes on a lot of his stuff. It's probably par for the course with improvisation.

[grahambop]

Another member, I forget who, pointed out that doing some transcribing improves our ability to comprehend music in real time.

Could have been me, I certainly found that after transcribing a few solos, I not only learned tons of ideas, but my ears developed a lot, to the point where I could figure a lot of stuff out just listening to it (as long as the tempo wasn’t really fast).

By the way, your teacher Tony Monaco started out by copying a Jimmy Smith record on his accordion (I saw it in an interview)! It is certainly the time-honoured method. But of course you need to analyse why the phrases sound so ‘right’. Also I don’t think you need to worry about ‘originality’, if you do it for long enough, you should find that it all gets absorbed and you start coming up with your own take on it all.

Actually I sometimes think you only need to transcribe the first chorus to get some great ideas, a lot of jazz players seem to unleash a lot of the good stuff in the first chorus. Certainly enough for you to be getting on with.

[kris]

Oh, practically no one is impressed with their own recordings. Wes did multi-multi takes on a lot of his stuff. It's probably par for the course with improvisation.

Interest in transcribing solos or licks translates into playing or recordings.
Without seeing it, you stand in one place.
These are proven methods for ages - I'm talking about learning jazz.
Whether someone is happy with their solo or not is a completely different matter.

[Jonah]

I don't want to argue with Ragman.
It follows from his thoughts that it is best to do nothing to develop in jazz music.
What does it mean to waste time?
If anyone wants to copy a master's favorite solo, do it. That's the motivation.
It's just learning jazz.The great drummer I played with sang Jaco Pastorius' solos.He was passionate about Jaco.
Knowing the theory is just a small part of learning jazz.The jazz musician has to be a sponge - soak up everything that is possible.Chatting about wasting time is a waste of time.

I remember an interview with Shostakovich I have read in my teens. He was asked - what should man do to love music and then to make music?
He said: first of all he should know music. It is astonishing how many people claim to be music admirers or want to make music but they do not know music.

[Gabor]

Could have been me, I certainly found that after transcribing a few solos, I not only learned tons of ideas, but my ears developed a lot, to the point where I could figure a lot of stuff out just listening to it (as long as the tempo wasn’t really fast).

By the way, your teacher Tony Monaco started out by copying a Jimmy Smith record on his accordion (I saw it in an interview)! It is certainly the time-honoured method. But of course you need to analyse why the phrases sound so ‘right’. Also I don’t think you need to worry about ‘originality’, if you do it for long enough, you should find that it all gets absorbed and you start coming up with your own take on it all.

Actually I sometimes think you only need to transcribe the first chorus to get some great ideas, a lot of jazz players seem to unleash a lot of the good stuff in the first chorus. Certainly enough for you to be getting on with.

exactly. I recognized that I can process, understand, comprehend many things, just it takes to me 100x times slower than it would be required. Certainly not real time. The prognosis not bright, I doubt my brain processing power will move in the increasing direction. An upgrade would be useful, but for that I should born a bit later, when it will be a common thing.

[Tal_175]

It's really hard to come up with new ideas over a section when you're visiting that section once or twice every 32 bars. That leads to always falling back to habitual patterns.

When I'm working on a tune, I find it useful to isolate short parts of the progression and work on different ideas over those sections. It's important to go back to playing the whole tune shortly after and integrate these new ideas while they are still fresh.

It's also useful to always be aware of the melody in these isolated sections of the harmony and use it as one possible melodic source as well as using harmony and voice leading based line building techniques.

[Reg]

Yea... lots of good advice. So your probable sounding the same because... that what your playing

There are a few standard approaches to learning how to.... have a reference....create relationship with that Reference and the develop of that relationship.

Ex.... Melodies work because they have key target notes that have relationships with harmony... chords

I'll skip the technical BS..

Take a dominant chord... Bb7

Learn how to use each note, (and the extensions), of that chord as the Reference.... By that I mean use that note as the Target

Ex. Start with Root or Bb, create a rhythmic pattern that repeats. Start with a two bar pattern. The 1st bar could be just....

1st Bar) Dotted quarter... eight.... space...
2nd Bar) half note rests...

I know this is simple, but you can create different patterns... the point is to start seeing and hearing different notes working with that Target or Reference note... in the example, the Bb.
Use Bb for 1st bar and G for 2nd bar.

What your going to see and start hearing is that the notes will begin to imply harmony or chords.

So you'll be .... creating "Relationships" with a "Reference", the Bb or root and then you start "Developing" those "Relationships"....

So say the 1st bar with Bb The Reference, then the 2nd bar with G the relationship.

Now start developing that relationship... the note G with the reference note Bb within those two bars.

Make the note G imply F-, now your creating a two chord Pattern.... a V7 to II- or make the 2nd bar a C- which could be V7 to VI-....

The point of this approach is to start hearing Harmony rather than just Note(s) and embellishment(s).

Obviously you create some written notes or notation of the process and what will happen is your vocabulary of licks will grow and what the licks can imply... with adjustments etc...

How you use simple notes will different paths... where they go etc.... Anyway there are lots of notes to use as the Reference and lots of notes to use as the Relationship.... and then the Development of those Relationships.

[drbhrb]

I got a tip from a teacher once that helped - sit down and improvise 40 choruses of a tune. By chorus 7 you'll be so sick of your usual shit you will have to come up with something new

[grahambop]

I got a tip from a teacher once that helped - sit down and improvise 40 choruses of a tune. By chorus 7 you'll be so sick of your usual shit you will have to come up with something new

Peter Bernstein says something like that. He said he would play the melody 50 times, eventually you get so tired of it you can’t help but embellish and change it, and end up with improvised ideas based on it.

[RJVB]

Peter Bernstein says something like that. He said he would play the melody 50 times, eventually you get so tired of it you can’t help but embellish and change it, and end up with improvised ideas based on it.

Bob Brozeman also said something like that, but about "making" blues. Except he suggested you just play that 12 or 8 or whatever bass bar pattern over and over until you can't stand it no more and just have to play something in addition. Demonstrated it too (in the "Resonate!" documentary about National Guitars).

[Bobby Timmons]

Could have been me, I certainly found that after transcribing a few solos, I not only learned tons of ideas, but my ears developed a lot, to the point where I could figure a lot of stuff out just listening to it (as long as the tempo wasn’t really fast).

By the way, your teacher Tony Monaco started out by copying a Jimmy Smith record on his accordion (I saw it in an interview)! It is certainly the time-honoured method. But of course you need to analyse why the phrases sound so ‘right’. Also I don’t think you need to worry about ‘originality’, if you do it for long enough, you should find that it all gets absorbed and you start coming up with your own take on it all.

Actually I sometimes think you only need to transcribe the first chorus to get some great ideas, a lot of jazz players seem to unleash a lot of the good stuff in the first chorus. Certainly enough for you to be getting on with.

I think a background of listening to develop an intuition for how you want it to sound and some deeper analysis via listening to pinpoint specific devices are probably essential. But understanding of theoretical concepts are essential too! Not raw theory, run this scale up and down, but how to apply the theory musically. That's what Tony does. He always shows me theory concepts that he uses - and he's ridiculously musical! This is a falsehood that theory is a hindrance to creativity, it's the opposite. I even told him about my thinking that I try to use ear/creativity and theory and he said, "that's a good way to be." An example is he told me an important exercise to start single line soloing is to practice the arpeggios. I asked him what is a good way to practice them? Should I make patterns or try to practice them musically? He said always try to play musically. He said to create lines you can mix playing arpeggios and scales, start a line with an arpeggio and then finish with a scale.

[pcjazz]

He said to create lines you can mix playing arpeggios and scales, start a line with an arpeggio and then finish with a scale.

That’s an important piece of Barry Harris’s teaching as well. Run up a chord, maybe from a half step below, then down the scale using his extra note rules. Insert a triplet in one or more spots. Pivot. And so on and so on, there are infinite possibilities.

[emanresu]

Got another thought.

When I was playing classical guitar, eventually a piece was memorized and technically enjoyable to play.
And there was a lot of times when I couldnt stop playing the same piece over and over. And it made me feel better and better.

This does happen with practicing improvisation too. But strangely it takes a bit longer. It starts to go.. places at some point. Much fun then.

The audience hears it just once. So, why does it feel you have to surprise yourself ever single time through?
Make those 4-6 choruses count every time. Let them be samey - why not? Just play the same thing with good energy - that's what really matters.

Not saying that learning licks and twists and arp combos and sequences and intervals andd chromatics and all that is a waste of time. Not at all

[buduranus2]

Does your advice stem from your musical experience?
Why don't you use it in your playing?
or I'm totally deaf ...

In sports, for example, the best coaches weren't always the best players.

[kris]

In sports, for example, the best coaches weren't always the best players.

It is similar in music schools ...