Improvising on rhythm changes

**TOMMO** · 01-30-2019, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Barry Harris.... This is not something I've actually dug into myself, so I'm reporting what I remember him saying on the subject.

IIRC Barry also said that early in his career Parker tended not to play the G7 in the turnaround, but this became a feature of his later playing? Was a while ago, maybe Alan could tell you for sure.

As I mentioned, of the top of my head the note B tends to appear in bar 3 of his RC heads where it appears.

Would have to sit down and go through his stuff to see if that's generally true of his soloing. Do tend to take BH's word on these things though.

I see what you mean now: staying on the I chord for an entire bar...

**rpjazzguitar** · 01-30-2019, 03:01 AM

I also find RC difficult. Usually called very fast. I tend to hear lines in my mind that I can't come close to playing fast enough. And, I don't usually think of anything worthwhile that I can play.

So, after enough bad experiences I worked out a few things to scuffle by if somebody else calls RC (I never call it).

I can play Oleo, Anthropology and a head of my own. Also the original melody to I Got Rhythm.

I worked out a chord based solo using some easy voicings that sounds like a shout chorus.

So, if somebody calls Anthro ... I might play my own head and then do my chord thing and I'm done.

Of course, I still get tempted to play through it. I tend to think of the first part as all key of Bb.

Then I can hear the Bb7. Then Eb and the G moving to Gb. I can scuffle through that.

So, I can avoid clams.

**Pycroft** · 01-30-2019, 03:29 AM

one of my favourite versions of rhythm changes

check out what he plays at 1:50 over the A section

F#7 B7 / E7 A7 / D7 G7 / C7 F7 /
Bb Bb7 / Eb Ebm/Dm G7 / Cm F7 etcetc

**christianm77** · 01-30-2019, 04:12 AM

Ah yes that amazing recording.

Miles and Bill Evans were also into that progression on RC. Monk and Tatum too.

And jazz educators tend to credit Thelonious Monk with that sub, although I don’t know if he invented it.

**joe2758** · 01-30-2019, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Ah yes that amazing recording.

Miles and Bill Evans were also into that progression on RC. Monk and Tatum too.

And jazz educators tend to credit Thelonious Monk with that sub, although I don’t know if he invented it.

are you talking about the back cycling thing above? do you happen to know a monk example off hand?

**christianm77** · 01-30-2019, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by joe2758

are you talking about the back cycling thing above? do you happen to know a monk example off hand?

Not off hand. But that’s how it was introduced to me....

**tomems** · 01-30-2019, 12:08 PM

Does anyone have handy "reduced" rhythm changes? I know we've talked about reduced Giant Steps changes before for soloing over, but I can't member ones for RC...

**ragman1** · 01-30-2019, 12:10 PM

Well, basically:

Bb - F7 - Bb - F7
Bb7 - Eb - Bb - F7 (F7 - Bb)

You can almost play it that way. Almost :-)

**joe2758** · 01-30-2019, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Well, basically:

Bb - F7 - Bb - F7
Bb7 - Eb - Bb - F7 (F7 - Bb)

You can almost play it that way. Almost :-)

that's how i play it scale wise for soloing (except i do Eb7). Different for chords though. Bear in mind I'm not good at soloing. yet.

**guitarbuddy** · 01-30-2019, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by tomems

Does anyone have handy "reduced" rhythm changes? I know we've talked about reduced Giant Steps changes before for soloing over, but I can't member ones for RC...

Actually you can reduce it down to |Bb |F7 |Bb |F7 |Bb7 |Eb |Bb |F7 ||

2nd ending for the last two measures could be |Bb F7 |Bb ||

Technically speaking the first F7 might need to be F7sus4, but for blowing it doesn't matter.

**ragman1** · 01-30-2019, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by guitarbuddy

Actually you can reduce it down to |Bb |F7 |Bb |F7 |Bb7 |Eb |Bb |F7 ||

2nd ending for the last two measures could be |Bb F7 |Bb ||

Er... I think someone just said that :-)

**sgosnell** · 01-30-2019, 01:43 PM

One of the great internet resources is Ralph Patt's (RIP) Vanilla Book. It has the basic vanilla changes for many standards.
Index

**ragman1** · 01-30-2019, 01:51 PM

Agreed, but only standards. But it's got 'I Got Rhythm'.

Improvising on rhythm changes-untitled-jpg

**christianm77** · 01-30-2019, 02:28 PM

Hey did you know you can reduce RC A section to

| Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |
| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7 |

For the purposes of blowing?

;-)

**joe2758** · 01-30-2019, 02:53 PM

you could actually play:

| Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 |
| Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7 |

which is what i do

**tomems** · 01-30-2019, 04:51 PM

A few years ago I asked, "What do I do over a fast ii V?" And everyone said: ignore the ii and play the V. So everything's come full circle for me. Time to hang up guitar and start drums...

**guitarbuddy** · 01-30-2019, 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

Er... I think someone just said that :-)

Oh, oops!

**PMB** · 01-30-2019, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Not off hand. But that’s how it was introduced to me....

Monk played it on "Rhythm-A-Ning". He didn't record that tune until 1957 (the main riff was actually written by Mary Lou Williams back in the mid thirties under another name) so it's difficult to know when he first introduced the idea. The Don Byas/Slam Stewart recording is from 1945 but Tatum was already playing with that sequence at least a year before. Check out this clip from 1'22":

**PMB** · 01-30-2019, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Actually, having a quick cheeky scan through the Omnibook and yeah... Not many articulations of the G7 at all in his early stuff, more in his later, and I can't see any in bar 1 of the A section, probably will be some examples if you look properly.

Notice Aebersold's chords often written

| Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb | Cm F7

Or

| Bb | Cm7 F7 | Bb G7 | Cm F7

Although, more often that G7 isn't actually articulated unambiguously in the line by using the B natural...

Interesting!

Exactly, he hardly ever articulated G7 in bar 1. Incidentally, in Gershwin's original, he wrote a bIIIo7 at that point in bar 3 rather than VI. I love that change as the melody momentarily holds onto on the (borrowed) major 7th of the chord before it falls to the bb7 - e.g. 'C-Bb' over Dbo7 in the key of Bb.

**Drumbler** · 01-31-2019, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by tomems

A few years ago I asked, "What do I do over a fast ii V?" And everyone said: ignore the ii and play the V. So everything's come full circle for me. Time to hang up guitar and start drums...

Or play the iim and ignore the V like Pat Martino.

**Doug B** · 01-31-2019, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Doublea A

We have a study group that is going (slowly) through the Frank Vignola Book in which he has written out 16 solos for RC. The solos get increasingly difficult but are still very approachable. I would encourage you to take a look at his book for some tasty improvisational ideas and if you like join the group.

Could you please post the link for your study group?

Thanks

**TOMMO** · 01-31-2019, 09:08 AM

Originally Posted by Doug B

Could you please post the link for your study group?

Thanks

Check out the "Improvisation" section - it's a sticky - 4th or 5th from the top.

**MarkRhodes** · 01-31-2019, 10:53 AM

Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes

This has gone on a long time in fits and starts. I need to get back to it.

**Doug B** · 01-31-2019, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Frank Vignola Rhythm Changes

This has gone on a long time in fits and starts. I need to get back to it.

Thanks for the link. I recognized Frank's name from Truefire.

Doug

**ragman1** · 02-05-2019, 11:54 AM

I don't know if anyone likes this. It's backcycling from the F7 so it sort of went:

Bb - B7 - E7 - A7
D7 - G7 - C7 - F7
Bb - E7 - A7 - D7
G7 - C7 - F7 - Bb

F#7 - B7 - E7 - A7
D7 - G7 - C7 - F7
Bb - E7 - A7 - D7
G7 - C7 - F7 - Bb

Begins far out and gradually resolves itself. Probably more effective played fast, as it should be.