Practice time and skill output

**tenaciousguitar** · 12-25-2018, 11:19 AM

Hi Guys,

I'm new to posting but do read a lot of content.

I think I am playing jazz for about five years now, with an inconsistent practice schedule. Every once in a while I'm hardcore practicing for a few weeks, after which I sometimes rarely practice for the next few weeks. Normally I practice for about 3 hours a week on various topics. No consistent schedule.

I know my scales and how they should be applied, drop-2 voicings, 3-9 arpeggio's, transcribed a bunch etc.
But still I do not have the idea that my lines flow or that I have the freedom in my improvisations I would like during jamsessions. I was wondering, how long did it take for you guys to experience some sort of improvisational freedom. To be able to play what you practice and make it something interesting in the flow. I know of course this is probably linear to the time you practice and that with some people it goes faster than others, but just in general. How long did it take you before you thought to yourselves: 'hell yeah, i'm in the pocket!'.

Thanks and regards!

**emanresu** · 12-25-2018, 03:51 PM

It took me 4 years to admit I was awfully out of pocket

**citizenk74** · 12-25-2018, 06:56 PM

1)

2) My pockets are empty, but my practice room is full. After the better part of a half-century, I'm beginning to make progress. I think.

3) 15 minutes a day every day is better than 15 hours straight for 15 days. Learning is repetition and reflection and reiteration.

Patience, Grasshopper.

**henryrobinett** · 12-25-2018, 07:58 PM

I always goofed around. I always spent a lot of time improvising and just goofing around. I also spent a lot of time in structured technical practice. I see a lot of people criticizing the goofing around part, saying that it's time wasted. I heartily disagree. I think the system of letting yourself go and just play, whether you know what you're doing or not, is crucial to being able to improvise. Improvisation is about letting yourself go and just jump. It's hard to tell yourself to go ahead and jump ONLY AFTER you've learned all your scales, arpeggios and ii-V patterns. Letting yourself go is the most important part. As you progress you need data and technical knowledge to back the "throwing your hands up in the air like you just don't care" part of jazz improv.

That said it was pretty early before I could improvise jazz in a relatively convincing way. Admittedly it was mostly modal style when I started in junior high school. In high school I was in bands and improvising on real jazz chord changes, though probably in mostly a modal way. But I had good ears so I could play those Count Basie charts like I knew what I was doing, even though I only kind of did. But I was already practicing and apply arpeggios to changes, so maybe I was more into it than I thought. I remember I was in senior in HS when I started chasing the 3rd and 7ths in improvisation. Being that that was 1973-74 I've been doing that for a long time.

It's about playing changes, tunes, time, phrasing. The more you work on reading the better your time will be and the more you'll up the ante on playing with professional bands.

**Thumpalumpacus** · 12-25-2018, 09:10 PM

I definitely agree with Henry, that improv is a skillset honed, oxymoronically, by practice. I always set aside a chunk of practice time for playing rather than practicing, if you take my meaning.

**cosmic gumbo** · 12-26-2018, 04:53 AM

You need the technical ability to execute whatever your mind comes up with, so working on technique is always a needed time investment. I know too many guys that can talk a good solo...

**tenaciousguitar** · 12-26-2018, 06:41 AM

Thanks for the replies. Its a life-long journey I guess.

**emanresu** · 12-26-2018, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by tenaciousguitar

Thanks for the replys. Its a life-long journey I guess.

It really is. If you got too little time to practice, then just got to organize better. And try to keep sharp and well rested when doing it. I have a lot of time to practice but that also means I waste a LOT of time

Fortunately there are plenty to do when not even near the guitar.

**christianm77** · 01-03-2019, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by tenaciousguitar

Hi Guys,

I'm new to posting but do read a lot of content.

I think I am playing jazz for about five years now, with an inconsistent practice schedule. Every once in a while I'm hardcore practicing for a few weeks, after which I sometimes rarely practice for the next few weeks. Normally I practice for about 3 hours a week on various topics. No consistent schedule.

I know my scales and how they should be applied, drop-2 voicings, 3-9 arpeggio's, transcribed a bunch etc.
But still I do not have the idea that my lines flow or that I have the freedom in my improvisations I would like during jamsessions. I was wondering, how long did it take for you guys to experience some sort of improvisational freedom. To be able to play what you practice and make it something interesting in the flow. I know of course this is probably linear to the time you practice and that with some people it goes faster than others, but just in general. How long did it take you before you thought to yourselves: 'hell yeah, i'm in the pocket!'.

Thanks and regards!

How many tunes do you know, including the melodies, and how often do you play with other people?

I started playing with others as much as possible right away. It focussed my practice.

Improvisationally, took a few years.

**tenaciousguitar** · 01-04-2019, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

How many tunes do you know, including the melodies, and how often do you play with other people?

I started playing with others as much as possible right away. It focussed my practice.

Improvisationally, took a few years.

I know about 25 tunes including melodies from the top of my head. With a fakebook I can fake most easy tunes. I rarely play with other people though. Maybe a good idea for a new years resolution.

Love your playing and jazzguitar scrapbook btw Christian!

**christianm77** · 01-04-2019, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by tenaciousguitar

I know about 25 tunes including melodies from the top of my head. With a fakebook I can fake most easy tunes. I rarely play with other people though. Maybe a good idea for a new years resolution.

Love your playing and jazzguitar scrapbook btw Christian!

Cheers man!

That sounds like a decent basic rep. I think playing with others is the best way. There’s no point where you go ‘I’m ready’ - you just have to get stuck in, best as you can.

**pcsanwald** · 01-04-2019, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by tenaciousguitar

I think I am playing jazz for about five years now, with an inconsistent practice schedule. Every once in a while I'm hardcore practicing for a few weeks, after which I sometimes rarely practice for the next few weeks. Normally I practice for about 3 hours a week on various topics. No consistent schedule.

Wynton Marsalis said the hardest thing about playing jazz is the first 20 years

.

I don't think you should worry too much about how much you can or can't practice. It's true that most of the jazz greats went through a period of spending significant time on their instrument, but there's no requirement that in order to play jazz you must have memorized all your drop 2 voicings or spent 10 years practicing 3 hours a day and whatever else.

In terms of instrumental fluency, I think learning melodies that you like, and are maybe a stretch technically, is probably a great use of your limited time.

**corpse** · 01-04-2019, 10:58 AM

It always takes everyone longer than they think. Every so often make sure you enjoy what you're doing.

**emanresu** · 01-04-2019, 11:28 AM

I have a list of those technical things to "keep alive". When trying to go through all them one by, it really sucks. And it takes 4 hours to finish. And after that it's hard to focus on music - too tired. What helped was making a script that shows the items randomly and change in 10 seconds. And jamming that stuff with Bernard Purdie. Joy is back and it seems it's the closest to real music I could get with them. Also what helps is to always mix up the "hot topics". When learning to play some new chords/voicings/inversion I never play them isolated - always 2 bars this, other 2 bars something else to connect or make a lick or whatever.

Well, I'm a forever-newb. But that helped. Two hours like this felt more useful than 4 hours one by one. Leaves way more time to get into tunes and without being tired already.

**guitarbuddy** · 01-04-2019, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by emanresu

And jamming that stuff with Bernard Purdie.

So he comes by your place. or what?

**emanresu** · 01-04-2019, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by guitarbuddy

So he comes by your place. or what?

Oh

Nah, Youtube.

**rpjazzguitar** · 01-04-2019, 04:47 PM

If you want to be a good combo musician, you have to play with other people. The best players you can get. As often as possible.

If you can handle the pressure on your self-esteem, you'll improve faster.

Jazz groups don't need multiple guitars, but if you invite another guitarist you're likely to learn something from him/her.

**akamat** · 01-04-2019, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

If you want to be a good combo musician, you have to play with other people. The best players you can get. As often as possible.

If you can handle the pressure on your self-esteem, you'll improve faster.

Jazz groups don't need multiple guitars, but if you invite another guitarist you're likely to learn something from him/her.

I am printing this and pinning this in my room.

So many people have given this advise and yet I am unable to get myself to do this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**guitarbuddy** · 01-04-2019, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by emanresu

Oh

Nah, Youtube.

I played with him once at Jack McDuff's memorial concert at the Dakota Jazz Club when it was located in St. Paul, MN (now in Minneapolis). I've played with several famous drummers, but Purdie had the best time feel of anyone, and he's a super chill, hilarious guy on top of it all.

**rpjazzguitar** · 01-04-2019, 09:33 PM

Originally Posted by akamat

I am printing this and pinning this in my room.

So many people have given this advise and yet I am unable to get myself to do this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I live in an area with a lot of people -- and a surprising number of musicians.

It isn't difficult to get people together who want to play. At the level you describe, you could do it with Real Books.

All you need is a place to play and a place to put an ad.

Since you're the chord instrument all you need is a bassist and one other player (horn, piano or second guitar). Drums are a plus, but you can play without drums. To me, the key is the bassist.

Another thing to do is to hire a teacher for combo lessons. Everybody chips in. Good money for the teacher, reasonable fees for the students. Can do it weekly, monthly or just one-offs.

**mtown** · 01-04-2019, 11:52 PM

What helped me was working through the Charlie Parker Omnibook. I would slow down the recordings and do my best to play along. You usually have to bring everything up an octave to match the recordings. It was really painfully slow at first but it really helped me with jazz phrasing and rhythms.

**tenaciousguitar** · 01-05-2019, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by akamat

I am printing this and pinning this in my room.

So many people have given this advise and yet I am unable to get myself to do this.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Exactly the same here! Has less to do with confidence or self esteem, but more so with not knowing any good (or descent) jazz guitar players personally.

**voxss** · 01-05-2019, 09:55 AM

**pcsanwald** · 01-05-2019, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar

If you want to be a good combo musician, you have to play with other people. The best players you can get. As often as possible.

Absolutely spot on. I once had a teacher at a respected jazz university program in NYC tell my class: "for all the money you cats pay to go here, you should just instead hire reggie workman and joe chambers to come to your apartment and play trio once a week. you'd learn a ton, save some bread, joe and reggie would get a taste, better for everyone".

I have often wondered why folks starting out learning this music don't hire their local jazz heavyweights to just play a session. I think a lot of guitarists I have encountered learning this music would get way more out of a "lesson" with a really good bassist and/or drummer, rather than a lesson with another guitarist. As a bassist, I certainly get more out of a session with a great jazz pianist, vs another jazz bassist.

**omphalopsychos** · 01-05-2019, 12:15 PM

I say this with modesty because I’m still very much on the journey, but this article completely changed my approach to practicing. I organize my time better, I set goals and practice themes, I document what I’m practicing in a journal, track notes of things I learned, and I now frequently record myself (just on iPhone) so I can critique myself. David Liebman is one of the greatest educators and I recommend checking out what he has to say: Practicing Philosophy | David Liebman

that said, the same approach doesn’t necessarily work for everyone.