Making guitar improvisation more melodic

[guitaroscar]

I have been learning the guitar for over 40 years and have played semi professionally and full time pro for much of this time. I am able to pretty much play whatever I want to. Subsequently my practise tends to revolve around musicianship rather than expanding my chord vocabulary or learning new scales etc.

Here is my brick wall and to some degree it has always been there: I need to play more melodically. When I listen to the solos of my favorites, Joe Pass, Miles Davis, Stan Getz, Charlie Parker and others, the thing I take away is that these guys all played singable melodies.

My solos are not so.

I can get around this to some extent by using a motif which I have preconceived. This also gives my solo unity. I think, having spent a lot of time with the Omnibook, that Charlie Parker may have also worked from preconceived motifs, although the very notion would be blasphemy to his fans.

I am after ideas on developing more melodic solos but above all developing my own melodic sense so that my first shot will be a singable melody.

How do you go about developing this skill?

I have found that that transcribing the work of others helps enormously but there must be other ways.

Any tips, please?

[blille]

I'm there with you.
How about:
- singing/whistling solos first then playing them on the guitar
- always sing the notes you play
- soloing over a song with changes but without a backing track

I've found those to be helpful.


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[Pat Clare]

Use space and play les notes

[christianm77]

Use space and play les notes

That's a result not a process.

[christianm77]

How about starting with the melody of the tune?

Also trying to quote other melodies over the song.

Then change them just enough so that they are no longer quotes.

[emanresu]

I'm probably the last person you need advice from, but whatever. I sometimes play a random pretty tune in between practice impro runs and it changes the mindset for the next solo. Gets slower but also can ignite a spark of some kind. Well, exactly this melodical approach you wanted in op.
Another thing that does the same trick more or less is this: while soloing, I try to remember what I did as much as I can and try to build from/on it. It's tough and needs 100% focus. Also, solo gets slower but the whole thing is connected better. Hm, then it doesn't "flow" so much but it feels like speaking about one certain thing all the way. Well, if the concentration breaks then it seems like there is some random restart suddenly in the middle.

-
e-man, the useless hobbyist

[TH]

Use space and play less notes

That's a result not a process.

It's a conscious thought process, to learn to pause, listen and digest the nature of what you have just played and learn strategies to build upon that.
For me, it's a process to be practiced. I listen to Sonny Rollins. I hear great results, but I also hear process in this awareness as it unfolds.

But I could be wrong too

David

[NSJ]

Use of silence, repetition and repeated notes, ascending and descending line cliches with aapproach note patterns, strong use of melodic intervals and mastery of thirds sixths, and P5s, ascending and descending P5s, 6ths and 3rds with chromatic approach notes-- appoggiatura, Neighbor tones, passing tones, escape tones, patterns against a pedal tone ( root and P5), 2-3-4 note sequences built on partial scales, archiving a proper balance between scales and arpeggios, developing a sense of oblique Motion, using wider intervals to create contrary motion , contrasting oblique motion with contrary motion , weaving bursts of fast chromatic patterns and clusters against a contrast of slower diatomic patterns that rely heavily on thirds, Sixths and perfect fifths .

Did I mention mastering thirds, Sixths and P5s ?

[christianm77]

It's a conscious thought process, to learn to pause, listen and digest the nature of what you have just played and learn strategies to build upon that.
For me, it's a process to be practiced. I listen to Sonny Rollins. I hear great results, but I also hear process in this awareness as it unfolds.

But I could be wrong too

David

IMO it's as unhelpful advice as telling someone to 'swing' or to 'play in time.'

I say this because leaving space of itself will not sound good unless you know what you are doing. Even for accomplished players the danger is that your playing will merely sound sparse and floaty... Good for ambient ECM stuff I guess - but I want to be able to express a swinging 240 on my own without spaffing 8ths all over the place.

To do this, I think the student needs a more developed rhythmic concept for one. One needs to learn to imply and engage with the tempo beyond simply running bop 8ths using idiomatic syncopations, negative and positive musical space etc. Certainly motives can really help - but you still have to know where the upbeats, displaced quarter triplets etc are at, and that, at least for me is not as easy as it sounds.

Jim Hall and Sonny Rollins encapsulate this for me.

[rlrhett]

I suppose this the holy grail of improvising melodies, but boy do I empathize! I find that when my playing is most satisfying I play melodically but often lose the changes. I become so engrossed in the line that I stop heating the changes. When I adhere to the changes my lines sound like arpeggio and scale exercises. Rarely do the two meet. I admit it is easier for me to create melodic lines than follow the changes, but I think that's just the other side of the same coin. It's doing both that is so elusive.

Parenthetically, I really dislike the idea of a different scale for every chord. The pre-jazz musician in me always felt the melody is the tune. Harmony serves the melody. I instinctively revolt against the idea of creating a melody to fit a rigid set of chord movements.

But that's the whole game in Jazz, isn't it? We get together around a proscribed chord progression and take turns improvising a melody that "fits". So we have to learn to do both at the same time.

Sorry, just commiserating. No actual suggestions to share.


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[Marty Grass]

I can't help you with advice but I agree that most guitar solos are weakest in melody as opposed to tone and technical skill.

[bako]

Hank Roberts, cellist with Bill Frisell, spoke about internally singing lines and rhythms while playing just a
small percentage of the material. This approach would possibly add greater coherence to the conscious
integration of silence.

[guido5]

Making your solos sing is key. Singing along with the solos of cats whose work you like will help you get that quality. That is a big part of the Tristano school methodology.

[emanresu]

Heh, I've done some singing with backing tracks just to learn the harmony - nah. I wouldn't want to play like that ever

[wolflen]

I have worked with melodic patterns..mainly the major scale in different interval patterns..there are hundreds of them just in ascending form .. add rhythmic variations to them and you begin to hear many familiar melodies or partial melodies from many songs ..

another approach for me is taking a simple melody..mary had a little lamb/London bridge..and play it through the modes of the major scale..the melody is displaces by one or two notes in each mode and from there you can add some riffs or arps to move it in a diatonic cycle or some kind of cadence..moving it in symmetric cycles also is another way to make it interesting..major and or minor thirds or any interval in even spaced cycles..

even a bare fragment of the melody spaced in four or eight bar clusters keeps the ear of the listener interested to see whats next..

try connecting parts of the melody in between some lines you know very well..licks arps etc from any and all chord types..in turnaround progressions play part of the melody over the chords..try the beginning of the melody at the end of the tune and the end of the melody at the beginning..truly know if forward and backward..

[docbop]

Your guitar is your limitation you need to sing, sing the melody, sing embellishing the melody, sing solos that are more melodic. Then start practicing singing a couple bars then play them on the guitar. That will help with the mind, ear, and hand connection. Right now when you guitar is in your hands you falling into familiar finger patterns, and limiting you to things you know you can play. When you sing there are no limitations so you will come up with things normally wouldn't with the guitar in your hands. Working on this daily, singing then playing what you sang will help with being able to play what you hear in your head, and get your head into opening up when guitar is in your hands.

This is why many composers write on an instrument that isn't their main instrument so they avoid going to familiar fingerings and lines.

[grahambop]

Didn't someone (forget who) recommend playing the melody for 2 bars (say), then improvising 2 bars, then continue the melody for 2 bars, and so on. While keeping the form intact. Seems like this might help to get you to connect your ideas to the melody better, and maybe improve them.

[pauln]

Some of the theory heavy hitters will know the name... classical music composition had "rules" about melody lines, some of them restricted the size of sequential pitch changes, and there were things about reversing and repeating, etc. From what I vaguely recall, the results were melodic in the since that they were similar to vocal lines, where the melody "rules" seemed to be very much like the natural restrictions vocalists self impose to maintain singing in control and in tune (a lot of close steps, no big jumps).

I think this is why most melodic advise points straight to singing, thinking of singing, hearing the lines as singing... the natural singing restraint that prevents too jumpy of pitch changes or too angular a harmonic move is the very stuff that makes it sound melodic, connected, and cohesive.

[diminix]

Some of the theory heavy hitters will know the name

For sure I am none of these... Maybe you're talking about the characteristic properties of melodies (Cantus Firmus) in Counter Point? The basics are explained nicely here: Composing a cantus firmus – Open Music Theory.

Robert

[guido5]

Heh, I've done some singing with backing tracks just to learn the harmony - nah. I wouldn't want to play like that ever

It sounds like you were just singing how you currently improvise. It doesn't advance anything.
What I'm suggesting, is not to just sing with a background track, but to actually sing along with the recording. Slow it down with Transcribe or Slowdowner to make the detail accessible. Copying the solo as closely as possible, every nuance. Once you can exactly duplicate by ear the solos you love you can move to the guitar with a much better aural picture of what they were doing. Do this with Lester Young, Charlie Christian and Paul Desmond and your solos will have that melodic quality you seek...

[TH]

See live music. Please.
There's something that can't be explained when you see live improvised music, and witness and experience a lyrical line being made while you share the moment. It can't be described but you can learn as much as any exercises; in a different way.
Find someone you can play with, on a regular basis if you can. And try out short phrases, medium length phrases and long phrases with your playing partner.
This experience of living in live music is the combination of time, gentle pressure, thought, kinesthetics, listening awareness, habit/proficiency, pressured imagination and satisfaction that just doesn't come any other way.

Look there. That's where you can find your lyric voice.

That's what's worked for me. Hope you can take all this in. There's good advice on this thread. Be patient and listen.

David

[christianm77]

Hank Roberts, cellist with Bill Frisell, spoke about internally singing lines and rhythms while playing just a
small percentage of the material. This approach would possibly add greater coherence to the conscious
integration of silence.

Interesting - Hal Galper talks about something similar - a form of self editing... Hal also says that it is essential for a player to go through the 'notey' phase to be able to get to this...

[emanresu]

Dunno. Singing a solo seems more random than doing it on guitar. Probably because that way there is too much freedom at hand (

) . I mean, by default it's no better than noodling. Maybe it's just me.. I only use it as a tool to get ears connected to fingers and learn harmony of new tunes. I never expect that it would boost creativity or help make my lines any prettier. I have thought about it, tried it but doesn't work for me. And the same time, I've made a bunch of songs myself. No problem creating working melodies there.

There is an argument that we probably don't know what we are doing with our mindless fingers but I have a counter-argument - when we suddenly DO know what they are doing, we KNOW that we do. And all is swell that time.

edit for a good one:

[christianm77]

I find singing some other people's music helps with that

[WILSON 1]

I am after ideas on developing more melodic solos but above all developing my own melodic sense so that my first shot will be a singable melody.

How do you go about developing this skill?

I have found that that transcribing the work of others helps enormously but there must be other ways.

Any tips, please?

Could be wrong here but a review of

might be in order.

This thread might develop if we decide to input soloing ideas based on sound music theory.