Shifting diminished scale over ii-V?

[rlrhett]

I don't know if this is basic jazz theory that I've missed being self taught, so I apologize if this should be in the Getting Started section.

I was working through some of Frank Vignola's "30 Hot Jazz Licks you Must Know" on truefire and I noticed something I've seen in other solo/lick libraries. He never mentions it, but I notice that he uses a diminished scale over the ii and V --but shifted.

I won't pretend to talk about note names, because with the dim scale that gets very confusing. And I notice he usually doesn't usually do more than a four note H-W-H phrase usually answered by an arpeggio or diatonic run in the parent key. But he does it a lot. I mean A LOT! Almost every 4 bar phrase.

What I mean by shifted is that over the ii chord he uses a dim scale where he will start on the maj7 note and do the H-W-H pattern. Then the whole thing shifts a half step for the V chord. This gives him the dominant dim I've seen before, although he seems to favor starting on the #9 of the V chord giving you again a H-W-H pattern. It is not always obvious because it is mixed into arpeggios or scale runs, but those four notes show up over and over.

Is this a widely know bebop thing? I mean, is this a well know device called a ".... " that any bebop artist should know and master? Is there more laid out somewhere about this I can dig into? "Shifting dim" studies, or well know melodies/solos that feature this prominently?

Thanks!

[pingu]

For clarification ....

What is the shift in semitones
Of the HWH dim scale you are referring to ?

I've heard up a minor third quite a bit
Is this the shift you're referring too ?

[pingu]

Yeah sorry op you did say a half step shift ....
(down)
Fuzzbee got it ...

Sorry I don't use that move/sound so can't help

Anyone here use that move ?

[Runepune]

It would make much sense if the ii is a II7.

[rlrhett]

OK, here's an example with actual notes*:

Over a Dm:

D-Eb-F-Gb-Ab-A-(D-C-B),

then over the G7 he would play

B-A#-Ab-G-(F-E)

Resolving the Cmaj by arpeggiating the Cmaj starting on the E or something like that.

So you see, it is never just the dim scale. He always mixes in some regular scale notes or an arpeggio. But there is that shift where the first dim plays everything BUT the G, and then uses the dominant-dim scale to get from the B to the G in over the G chord.

I hope that makes sense and I'm not missing something obvious. These dim scales are awfully confusing.

*I've put in parenthesis the end of the line that is not dim scale.

[Runepune]

The notes in the parenthesis also belong to those two HW scales. If he does use that scale over a ii, I'm thinking he makes it a II7 (D7). If the shifts are quick, one can probably get away with that. Not so much on a ballad...Those HW scales are quite useful as they cover 4 dom7 chords each

When moving down the circle of fifths in major7 chords, it's quite common make a chromatic downward movement (tritone substitutes). Though that's not necessarily what's happening here, as the scale is symmetrical and fits D7 and G#7 equally.

[christianm77]

I'm a bit confused by this thread - what's the exact line he plays?

If you mean the four note pattern H-W-H, then yes that is something I noticed a lot in bop lines myself. For example these notes on a G7:

G Ab Bb B

Or, on a Dm7

C# D Eb F

Is that what you meant? I call this the bebop tetrachord as it's just four notes.

It doesn't belong exclusively to the diminished scale, although the dim scale is obviously exclusively made up of this tetrachord. Another scale that has this is the G altered. But these options are quite 'exotic' to my ears.

One scale I use a lot is what I think of as the minor dominant scale, which on G7 would run like this:

G Ab Bb B C D Eb F

This is a scale made up of the C natural and C harmonic minor scales, although there are other ways of looking at it. Notice that it contains the tetrachord I mention above. I use this scale because it's the one I most often hear older jazz musicians (i.e. ones from the bop era and pre-modal era) playing on V7b9 chords. This seems relevant because Frank is pretty old school.

Now the diminished scale is slightly different:

G Ab Bb B C# D E F

Now the C# and E really give this scale its sound. TBH I don't hear this scale in the bop era that commonly. But these scales along with the G altered - G Ab Bb B Db Eb F - are all closely related.

Hope that's some help.

[rlrhett]

As usual, Christian, you have helped me unlock it. You know, you have a lot of knowledge about these things. You should share it, maybe make a YouTube video or something...

When you said what was the EXACT line, I thought "didn't I already do that?" But I went back anyway. What I noticed was that Vignola only did this on a minor ii-V-i. The line ended not with a Cmaj arpeggio, but rather a Cm arpeggio. Then I looked at the other lines.

1) Yes, we are talking almost always of your bebop "tetrachord". It is almost always a four note phrase that is answered with something more "sweet" sounding.
2) 90% of the time, it is exactly what you said. The line over the Dm is often C#-D-E-F and G-Ab-A#-B over the G7. The "tetrachord" is played as eighth notes over beat one and two, with some answer usually within the Cmaj scale or arpeggiating Dm. The G "tetrachord" for four eighth notes followed by four notes from the C blues scale or Cmaj. Same diminished scale over both Dm and G7. No shift at all.

Fuzzthebee, you helped me understand that minor thing he does:
3) Only on a minor ii-V-i did I see the shift to D-Eb-F-Gb. Of course there is a vary familiar minor blues progression of a bVI7-V7-Im7. By playing that diminished "tetrachord", he is implying a Ab7. The thrill is back for me!

I knew that there was more to it than just random chromatic notes. It was too consistent. This forum is awesome!!!!

[EDIT] I should mention that Vignola would not necessarily play two "tetrachords" over a single 251 or even necessarily moving always up from D to Gb. One line might have the "tetrachord" over the Dm, but not again over the G7. Maybe a second time around it would be only over the G7. They might run down from Gb to D, etc. I only found one example with both played in one two bar phrase. But that is what made it stand out and catch my attention.

Apologies to Frank if I made it seem like he was some one-trick-pony. I'm just a bit of a pattern freak.

[pingu]

i only found one example with both played in one two bar phrase. But that is what made it stand out and catch my attention.

Apologies to frank if i made it seem like he was some one-trick-pony. I'm just a bit of a pattern freak.

ok now it makes more sense .....
thanks for clarifying ...

Hey we're all pattern freaks here !

[christianm77]

Spotting patterns in music is the way we can unlock the code... :-)

I think it has more value when you notice something yourself...

[pauln]

Example with Wave...

D(6/9) -> Bbdim -> Am7....

...soloing from G w-h dim during the Bbdim...

...slipping down to Gb w-h dim during the Am7...

Is this the sound?

[rlrhett]

I am sorry, I am not very familiar with Wave; but that seems to be exactly it.

[wolflen]

the diminished scale has many chords embedded in it..as well as a couple of tri tone scales..take apart the C dim scale and see how many chords you can find..you will be surprised

BTW..there are only three diminished scales...C Db D..being a symmetric scale each note built into a dim chord is a minor third apart thus you will have four dim 7th chords built from each dim scale --and of course to add more confusion.. the scale tones of the chord are R mi3rd b5th and the 6th tone of the C MAj scale but it is called by some a double flat 7th..thus dim 7 chord..but to simplify it .. for me.. its the 6th tone

so for C dim - C Eb Gb A for Db dim- Db E G Bb and D dim-D F Ab B .. note: they are all the notes of the chromatic scale .. so with some study you can imply just about any chord or series of chords in using the scale and chords embedded in it

this may make it easier to see the dim scale and how it works...

my view: many think the HW and WH scales are two different scales...but if you take apart the Cdim WH and the B dim HW you will notice they are both C dim only one starts on B the 8th note of the C dim scale..it makes it much easier to manage dim scales if you only have one scale in your head to work with instead of two..

hope this helps

[pauln]

I am sorry, I am not very familiar with Wave; but that seems to be exactly it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I have found the diminished scale to be confusing.

Maybe it shouldn't be, since there are only three of them, but they have a lot of names. 7b9, HW, WH. Also, diminished arp and the dimished arp a half step away. Too much to think about! I end up using two fingerings, worked out long ago and even then, it's struggle to keep it all straight.

One thing that has helped is to think about the HW dim scale as a 7b9#9#11 (with natural 5 and 13).

G7b9#9#11 is G Ab Bb B C# D E F

Same notes as G HW.

Since we're used to thinking about 7th chords with various alterations, this isn't a stretch.

[55bar]

I don't know if this is basic jazz theory that I've missed being self taught, so I apologize if this should be in the Getting Started section.

I was working through some of Frank Vignola's "30 Hot Jazz Licks you Must Know" on truefire and I noticed something I've seen in other solo/lick libraries. He never mentions it, but I notice that he uses a dim scale over the ii and V --but shifted.

I won't pretend to talk about note names, because with the dim scale that gets very confusing. And I notice he usually doesn't usually do more than a four note H-W-H phrase usually answered by an arpeggio or diatonic run in the parent key. But he does it a lot. I mean A LOT! Almost every 4 bar phrase.

What I mean by shifted is that over the ii chord he uses a dim scale where he will start on the maj7 note and do the H-W-H pattern. Then the whole thing shifts a half step for the V chord. This gives him the dominant dim I've seen before, although he seems to favor starting on the #9 of the V chord giving you again a H-W-H pattern. It is not always obvious because it is mixed into arpeggios or scale runs, but those four notes show up over and over.

Is this a widely know bebop thing? I mean, is this a well know device called a ".... " that any bebop artist should know and master? Is there more laid out somewhere about this I can dig into? "Shifting dim" studies, or well know melodies/solos that feature this prominently?

Thanks!

Another way of looking at diminished and my preferred way which is similar to this tetra chord idea is.

Seeing the diminished scale as two 4 note minor scales a tritone apart

F G Ab Bb
B C# D E

Over G713b9 this really helps you play melodically as we all play minor lines a lot, it breaks you out of those diminished obvious "here's my diminished shit" lines.

Sometimes when I get to G7b9 for example I'll play the bottom four notes (B minor) and resolve into the one, I think a lot of the old style players used this A LOT.

If you look at a lot of standard melodies they are also doing this over Diminished chords.

Try it you may like it

[christianm77]

I did a vid that touches on some of these issues

[55bar]

I did a vid that touches on some of these issues

Great stuff

"Reg Minor". Made me laugh so much I spat my tea out.




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