Less fingerings - mastering the changes faster ?

[christianm77]

I´m talking about the fast access of these tools in improvisation. Example: if I see a DMaj7 chord, and I want to superimpose the F#m7, so the faster is the thinking the better it will be.

I think that's a good way to practice. Just apply the same thing on every chord (as much as possible.)

However, the next step would be to try and join the thing together, and to do that, you kind of have to learn a few different positions.

Say for example your exercise is to run 1-7 and 1-7-1 on every chord in a standard using the melodic minors, lydian dom on major dominants, altered on minor dominants.

No once this is done you are going to find your hand bouncing all over the place... The difficult thing as any experienced jazzer will tell you is not playing each chord in isolation but leading one chord through into the next without changing melodic direction. To do this AFAIK you have to start looking at different positions for the same scale.

[rodolfoguitarra]

Summarizing: 2 shapes for each 7th chord inversion: 8 possibilities

[rodolfoguitarra]

7:48 Jimmy Bruno talks that guitar players dont have good ears because theres lots of fingerings and shapes, so it is difficult to connect a sound with the fingers. Very good!

[rio]

That's very true. Jimmy was an ear training teacher when I was in college - when I got back into guitar (I was only playing double bass then) I took online lessons for a little bit when he had the guitar institute going and got into his 5 shape thing. I am almost all self taught on guitar and the direction he gave me there was invaluable - I use the five shapes when I teach now too and think that system is hands down the best way to learn the fingerboard as a guitarist - particularly a jazz guitarist. It isn't something that Jimmy invented since it is basically the CAGED system but the way he presented it was great and when you learn those five shapes you start to see the same fingerings all over the neck so you stop thinking "what arpeggio fingerings should I memorize" and instead think "now I know all of my arpeggio fingerings through theory and knowing my 5 scale shapes". They contain all the modes of course, all diatonic arpeggios in position and you just alter notes when you need to. Jimmy didn't talk about this, at least when I was doing it, but there are also 5 jazz minor shapes that I find very useful as well since those cover a lot of the harmony and melody that aren't in the diatonic modes. Harmonic minor too of course but that one I didn't find as useful in real life - the more fingerings the merrier in terms of exercising the brain but the 5 diatonic shapes and 5 melodic (jazz) minor shapes give you a ton of utility. Then you just need to know your diminished scales and whole tone scales, if you want to. But anyway, just doing those 5 diatonic shapes for a long long time until they are internalized is immensely helpful because you will learn everything relating to diatonic harmony as you practice arpeggios, melodic cells etc through all the shapes, restrict your position for soloing to see if you know each section of the neck but through all of that you really do just start seeing the same shapes all over the neck.

Paul

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[christianm77]

Hey rio just think of how much more you would have got done if you'd spent time arguing on the forum about the merits of five shapes re seven shapes. /S/

I don't think GADSFP is a recognised internet acronym, but it should be :-)

Great point from mr Bruno btw.

[rio]

Hahahaha. Back in college Jimmy was teaching more shapes to guitar students. I forget if it was 7 but friends of mine who were his guitar students definitely were working on more shapes and they turned out fine somehow haha


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[emanresu]

I saw, Rodolfo liked that little simple map. I haven't worked for so long with it myself because I have other goals right now but with the help of this thing, you can have 30 fingerings for d7 chord in 20 minutes for example. And they will stick well if attached to the grand layout. Without it -without the big map- , it would be useless to try and remember 30 of them all in one sitting. And you don't have to think about them as "inversions".. Think about them as comfortable & good sounding ways to play d7 group chords, containing 9,11,13.. or more of those in them. Don't have to be rigid and play correct d7 inversions from roots each string or something - thats for brain geniuses. And spider-finger-people A few of those rigid inversions are so hard for fingers that they never come up when comping naturally. hm.. meaning comping without pre-written voicings for the tune.

Mark the spots for the chord voices that you must have on the map - 1,3,7, the rest is free to use or not to use. And voila, its so easy. You'll pee your pants

There is a big bunch good sounding comfy chords for each function group all over the fretboard. Like.. when people complain about "guitar is so hard vs piano" I instantly think about the abundance of those comfy 4-voice chords. Big map helps to make it easy to get a bundle of them instantly, not one by one.

Eh. This method is not new also. When got into it, I searched around the internet and saw at least 2 places that do the same. One was college joint or something.. But it was so many years ago.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hahahaha. Back in college Jimmy was teaching more shapes to guitar students. I forget if it was 7 but friends of mine who were his guitar students definitely were working on more shapes and they turned out fine somehow haha


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Top of my head, I think it was six?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Hey rio just think of how much more you would have got done if you'd spent time arguing on the forum about the merits of five shapes re seven shapes. /S/

I don't think GADSFP is a recognised internet acronym, but it should be :-)

Great point from mr Bruno btw.

Trouble maker.... :-)

....of course the real argument isn't 5 vs. 7, so much as shift versus stretch....

Incidentally, I think it's interesting that if you cycle 5 shapes, they cycle UP the fretboard, whereas 7 cycle DOWN the fretboard.

Doesn't mean anything I guess. Just interesting.

[rio]

That's another thing I like about shifts - you can run your scale shapes through all 12 keys starting from C and just gradually work up the neck as high as you want to go.


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[rodolfoguitarra]

Jimmy Bruno thinks the same. In his book ´´Six Essential Fingerings for the Jazz Guitarist (The Jimmy Bruno Jazz Guitar Series)´´ he says:

´´Guitarists face a sometimes overwhelming number of choices as to where to play a given note or phrase and what fingering to use. While a given fingering for a scale or phrase may be possible, it may not be practical. In this book, jazz guitarist Jimmy Bruno lays out six fingerings for the major scales which he has found to be the most efficient in his thirty years of professional playing. These patterns are then used to derive fingerings for the dorian mode, mixolydian mode, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor scales. Illustrations are provided in notation and tablature with fretboard diagrams aiding visualization. By using these fingerings consistently, the guitarist will eliminate all unnecessary fingerings and remove a major obstacle to his or her development as a musician.´´

[fasstrack]

Do you think if we stick with only one or two fingerings for each arpeggio the process of mastering the changes would go easier or faster? Less pattern = less decisions or paths to take, making the thinking process more efficient. Some people may argue that certain types of fingerings results in unique sounds (example: horn like phrasing). What do you think? See the example below, I have 3 options to do an Cm6 arpeggio, but the green one does not require finger stretch, so stick with it for everytime I see a Xm6 would be much more efficient. In tune in P4s, so this shape repeats for the entire fretboard.

Attachment 40893

I must've missed the boat. I always put the music and my ears first, and the fingerings invent themselves, never a thought about that.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess...

[vsaumarez]

I'm not sure thinking purely in terms of playing arpeggios is useful for improvising, but they are useful for identifying notes on the fret board. Finding the path of least resistance, ie keeping it simple makes that task easier on the guitar. But you also raise a valid point that exploring other fingerings can create different and interesting sounds.