Guitar solos that go on too long

**MarkRhodes** · 10-07-2016, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I keed, I keed, but sometime he leans on the three note weedly, weedly organ thing too long. But I love Pat!

Funny you should mention that. There's a video of him and Scofield with Joey DeFrancesco playing "Sunny" at a festival and Pat plays that lick for over a full minute---at that tempo, it was a couple choruses of the tune! That's Pat.

**pingu** · 10-07-2016, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

Alvin Lee on the Woodstock version of "Goin' Home."

Yeah but what an intro !
Energy !

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-07-2016, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Funny you should mention that. There's a video of him and Scofield with Joey DeFrancesco playing "Sunny" at a festival and Pat plays that lick for over a full minute---at that tempo, it was a couple choruses of the tune! That's Pat.

How I avoid doing that: whenever I start doing the three-note-weedley a mental image of Pat Martino shaking his head automagically pops into my head. Sorry, Pat! That's your thing.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-07-2016, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by pants

I'm a big fan of Stephen Malkmus's guitar work (solo stuff and older work with Pavement). Often he just gets a little melodic bit in or does a riff on the vocal melody. Sometimes he stretches it out but I feel like it's well developed, taking some cues from Television.

I feel like Phish is a tricky one... Often I just get bored, but sometimes they really nail it with the group improv thing. Definitely they had this better in the earlier era. Starting late 90s they shifted toward a more repetitive bass line vamp feel.

So nice to see another Pavement/malkmus appreciator here.

**pants** · 10-07-2016, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

So nice to see another Pavement/malkmus appreciator here.

Ditto. He's not flashy, but so melodic. Love the way he accompanies his vocals with melodic/harmonizing guitar lines. Also that he doesn't take himself so seriously lyrically while still telling stories and making statements.
I'm always surprised how often my mention of Pavement or Malkmus is met with a blank stare. I mean I don't expect as much familiarity in a jazz forum, but even among people who are in similar rock circles.

**morroben** · 10-07-2016, 11:29 AM

Pavement is great! Built to Spill is another band that can jam out without boring me. I think Doug Martsch is criminally underrated.

**Boston Joe** · 10-07-2016, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by pants

I feel like Phish is a tricky one... Often I just get bored, but sometimes they really nail it with the group improv thing. Definitely they had this better in the earlier era. Starting late 90s they shifted toward a more repetitive bass line vamp feel.

To quote Page McConnell (Phish's keyboardist), "Sometimes you have to sit through fifteen minutes of crap because what happens in minute 16 is amazing."

I agree that they were better in the earlier days. There's a very simple reason: somewhere along the line, they stopped rehearsing as a group. They got involved in side projects, had families, etc, and just didn't have time for it. (Trey's drug habit was a factor as well, but, I think a smaller one than the simple time crunch.) In the very early days of the group, they'd rehearse constantly when they weren't gigging. Mainly because they didn't have anything else to do. Once they stopped rehearsing together, the group improv thing went to hell.

The repetitive bass line thing is somewhat of a side issue, and was, to some extent, deliberate. They got interested in things like EDM. Trey, especially. The bass figure in "First Tube" never changes, and it sounded better with the TAB because the bassist was happy to be a time keeper (unlike Mike Gordon, who, don't get me wrong, has great time, but also wants to explore the harmonic spaces).

**pants** · 10-07-2016, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

To quote Page McConnell (Phish's keyboardist), "Sometimes you have to sit through fifteen minutes of crap because what happens in minute 16 is amazing."

I agree that they were better in the earlier days. There's a very simple reason: somewhere along the line, they stopped rehearsing as a group. They got involved in side projects, had families, etc, and just didn't have time for it. (Trey's drug habit was a factor as well, but, I think a smaller one than the simple time crunch.) In the very early days of the group, they'd rehearse constantly when they weren't gigging. Mainly because they didn't have anything else to do. Once they stopped rehearsing together, the group improv thing went to hell.

The repetitive bass line thing is somewhat of a side issue, and was, to some extent, deliberate. They got interested in things like EDM. Trey, especially. The bass figure in "First Tube" never changes, and it sounded better with the TAB because the bassist was happy to be a time keeper (unlike Mike Gordon, who, don't get me wrong, has great time, but also wants to explore the harmonic spaces).

Yeah, I know the bass line development was deliberate. Setting up a solid vamp to mess about with feedback loops and layered delay and whatnot on top of. Not really my bag... At least not as the predominant thrust of the music. Side note, saw the Trey Anastasio band back when I was in college with John Medeski sitting in on keys. Gave Trey a whooping musically speaking. Meanwhile the bassist is over there playing the same 3 notes for 20 minutes. It was an odd and disjointed show to say the least.

**Boston Joe** · 10-07-2016, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by pants

Yeah, I know the bass line development was deliberate. Setting up a solid vamp to mess about with feedback loops and layered delay and whatnot on top of. Not really my bag... At least not as the predominant thrust of the music. Side note, saw the Trey Anastasio band back when I was in college with John Medeski sitting in on keys. Gave Trey a whooping musically speaking. Meanwhile the bassist is over there playing the same 3 notes for 20 minutes. It was an odd and disjointed show to say the least.

I can imagine. I've seen MMW and MSMW many times. Medeski never fails to deliver.

Their "ambient" phase wasn't really my bag, either. I started seeing them very early in Boston clubs, when they were young, hungry and AMAZING. Nothing they've done since has lived up to that, although I've seen some fairly solid shows in recent years (after Trey cleaned up). Those early "White Tape" and Junta era shows were transcendent, though.

**artdecade** · 10-08-2016, 10:59 AM

I love Phish. New and Old.

**lammie200** · 10-08-2016, 11:18 AM

I practice solos that go on way too long.

I am a guitarist. I like long guitar solos as long as they groove, swing, etc. If they break down then I like to hear what happens next and figure out the technicalities in my head. It has been said before, but the correct note is only a half step away. If a guitarist taking a long solo breaks down and doesn't resolve it cleanly it just affirms their humanness to me, and I know that they weren't dominated by some producer or engineer. If it is a recording then I know what to expect when I hear it. If it is a live performance then they are just wearing their hearts on their sleeves and I like seeing the dynamics of getting back in he groove. All that said, there are some virtuoso guitarists that I just don't dig altogether and it doesn't matter to me how long their solos are, but that is a different subject.

**Boston Joe** · 10-08-2016, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by lammie200

I practice solos that go on way too long.

I am a guitarist. I like long guitar solos as long as they groove, swing, etc.

For me, it's largely about interaction between the band members. A long solo can be great if it's a conversation. If it's a monologue, I usually get bored.

It's not guitar, but if you check out the Sonny Rollins album Road Shows Vol. 1, there's a tune called "Best Wishes". It's all Sonny. It's basically one long tenor solo from start to finish, but it's positively riveting. Sonny is on fire, and the band is keeping up with him every step of the way. The other great thing about it is it's not just stream-of-consciousness. There are themes that he keeps bringing back and working variations on. To extend the conversation metaphor, it's like they're discussing an idea - talking about different aspects, approaching from different perspectives, etc.

It's a very different animal from your basic Coltrane wannabe at a jam session taking 20 choruses and not saying anything.

**lammie200** · 10-08-2016, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Joe

... A long solo can be great if it's a conversation...

I totally agree. That has been my approach to guitar playing since day one. The great thing is that it can be conversation about anything with anything. Melody, counterpoint, etc., between myself and the guitar, between the band and the guitar, between the guitar and guitar itself, etc.