Playing changes with three basic arpeggios

**grahambop** · 08-22-2016, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

So, just for the beginner like me:

We've got a typical vi-ii-V7-I progression say, Am-Dm-G7-Cmaj. You would suggest that we construct lines from the Am6 over the Am, the Dm6 over the Dm, the Cm6 or Abdim over the G7, and the Am6 again over the Cmaj?

I haven't read all the other posts, and I'm approaching this from the Barry Harris sixth/diminished chord method (as opposed to single lines), but my understanding of this is as follows:

Am - use C6
Dm - use F6
G7 - use Dm6
For G7 alt, use Abm6. Or substitute Fdim (and its other 3 related dim chords) to get G7b9.
Cmaj - use C6.

For m7b5 use the m6 up a minor 3rd.
e.g. Dm7b5 - use Fm6.

**princeplanet** · 08-22-2016, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I haven't read all the other posts, and I'm approaching this from the Barry Harris sixth/diminished chord method (as opposed to single lines), but my understanding of this is as follows:

Am - use C6
Dm - use F6
G7 - use Dm6
For G7 alt, use Abm6. Or substitute Fdim (and its other 3 related dim chords) to get G7b9.
Cmaj - use C6.

For m7b5 use the m6 up a minor 3rd.
e.g. Dm7b5 - use Fm6.

So BH would not agree with generalising such that you play Dm6 over both, the Dm7 and the G7? Wasn't this a common Bop thing?

**rlrhett** · 08-22-2016, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

That's incorrect. The m6 is built on the fifth of the dominant chord. So your G7 would be Dm6 - D F A B.

I should have said 'm6 can be played over the dominant chord a fourth higher' - hopefully that's what I've said.

In any case, the link under the new video has some written examples of how you would apply this on a tune. Hopefully that should be clear.

Thanks. That helps. I think the confusion was "a" fourth vs "the" fourth? I interpreted it to mean play "the" fourth "over" the "A" in your example rather than play "a" fourth interval above the "D". As in play Dm6 over the A7.

**christianm77** · 08-22-2016, 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

Thanks. That helps. I think the confusion was "a" fourth vs "the" fourth? I interpreted it to mean play "the" fourth "over" the "A" in your example rather than play "a" fourth interval above the "D". As in play Dm6 over the A7.

Yeah I just hope I didn't muddle it up.

**christianm77** · 08-22-2016, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

So BH would not agree with generalising such that you play Dm6 over both, the Dm7 and the G7? Wasn't this a common Bop thing?

It was a common swing thing, probably earlier.

BH wouldn't have an issue with it. In fact the 'important minor' is a cornerstone of his teaching.

The min6-dim thing is a different bag.

**NSJ** · 08-22-2016, 02:48 PM

I think of the 6 dim scale as one integrated system of dominance-dissonance to consonance (A really elegant way to understand the fundamental cadence of tonal music --V -I.

**christianm77** · 08-22-2016, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by rlrhett

So, just for the beginner like me:

We've got a typical vi-ii-V7-I progression say, Am-Dm-G7-Cmaj. You would suggest that we construct lines from the Am6 over the Am, the Dm6 over the Dm, the Cm6 or Abdim over the G7, and the Am6 again over the Cmaj?

Sorry only just saw this.

Am ---> Am6 or Am7
Dm ---> Dm7 or Dm6
G7 ----> Dm6, Abo7
Cmaj7 ---> Am7

- the bit we discussed re the G7/Dm6 thing.
- Am6 over C will give you an F# and therefore a lydian sound. That might work, but is not a common choice for swing or bop music. YMMV. Am7 is a more conservative choice.

So the whole thing can be handled with two arps - Am7 and Dm6.

The melody for Django's Swing 42 is a good example of a tune that actually does use Dm6 over the Dm and G7, over a rhythm changes style chord progression in C.

Not the only options, but that'll get you started, in particular for pre-war jazz styles, which is what my channel focusses on.

Maybe I'll do another video on how to handle turnaround tunes - like Rhythm Changes - using this appraoch.

My example - All of Me is here

**christianm77** · 08-22-2016, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

I think of the 6 dim scale as one integrated system of dominance-dissonance to consonance (A really elegant way to understand the fundamental cadence of tonal music --V -I.

Yes I feel I've scratched the surface with it. I'm still getting used to playing drop 2's through in all keys and BH dim scale types, but there's a lot in there.

Just so I can be absolutely clear, nothing I discuss in the video has anything much to do with Barry's teaching. This is basic stuff I learned myself, from records, and many teachers talk about this kind of thing.

It does feature in Barry's teaching, but he goes far beyond these basic principles. These are basic videos to help people get improvising over changes.

**grahambop** · 08-22-2016, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

So BH would not agree with generalising such that you play Dm6 over both, the Dm7 and the G7? Wasn't this a common Bop thing?

You can do that if you want, of course, if you want to hear the 6th sound on a minor chord.

**christianm77** · 08-22-2016, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

You can do that if you want, of course, if you want to hear the 6th sound on a minor chord.

Of course, if you don't, you could try the m7 instead.

**grahambop** · 08-22-2016, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Of course, if you don't, you could try the m7 instead.

I probably could have expressed myself a bit better, didn't mean to sound like a smart-arse! What I meant was if you use Dm6 to get a Dm, to me that 6th is quite a strong flavour when it's in a minor chord, and changes the feel of the chord quite a lot. Whereas F6 just gives you a Dm7 which would be a bit more 'usual' perhaps.

I hasten to add, I do like using m6. I especially like that m6,9 type chord that Wes used a lot. But I don't like to over-use it.

**christianm77** · 08-22-2016, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

I probably could have expressed myself a bit better, didn't mean to sound like a smart-arse! What I meant was if you use Dm6 to get a Dm, to me that 6th is quite a strong flavour when it's in a minor chord, and changes the feel of the chord quite a lot. Whereas F6 just gives you a Dm7 which would be a bit more 'usual' perhaps.

I hasten to add, I do like using m6. I especially like that m6,9 type chord that Wes used a lot. But I don't like to over-use it.

Bear in mind the name of my channel is 'learn gypsy jazz and swing guitar.'

That's what Charlie Christian did... Over use m6. That's not to say there's nothing else - all of the subs get used even in 30s music.... but, if you had to ask me to define the sound of swing era it would be the min and maj sixth chords.....

You wont find the m7 sound used much on tonic minor during this era. It does get used, but generally in passing. m6 is more common - but minor triad is actually more common in Django's music AFAIK.

But then to me, m7 on minor is kind of 50s/60s kind of sound. It's quite soul-ey, really....

If I was doing this from the perspective a later guitar style, I might have chosen different arpeggios. Perhaps, m7 on minors, m7 a third up on majors, o7 on minor dominants, maybe m7 or b7 maj7 sub on majors...

**grahambop** · 08-22-2016, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Bear in mind the name of my channel is 'learn gypsy jazz and swing guitar.'

That's what Charlie Christian did... Over use m6. That's not to say there's nothing else - all of the subs get used even in 30s music.... but, if you had to ask me to define the sound of swing era it would be the min and maj sixth chords.....

You wont find the m7 sound used much on tonic minor during this era. It does get used, but generally in passing. m6 is more common - but minor triad is actually more common in Django's music AFAIK.

But then to me, m7 on minor is kind of 50s/60s kind of sound. It's quite soul-ey, really....

If I was doing this from the perspective a later guitar style, I might have chosen different arpeggios. Perhaps, m7 on minors, m7 a third up on majors, o7 on minor dominants, maybe m7 or b7 maj7 sub on majors...

Yes that all makes perfect sense, I should have watched the video first!

**NSJ** · 08-23-2016, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Bear in mind the name of my channel is 'learn gypsy jazz and swing guitar.'

That's what Charlie Christian did... Over use m6. That's not to say there's nothing else - all of the subs get used even in 30s music.... but, if you had to ask me to define the sound of swing era it would be the min and maj sixth chords.....

You wont find the m7 sound used much on tonic minor during this era. It does get used, but generally in passing. m6 is more common - but minor triad is actually more common in Django's music AFAIK.

But then to me, m7 on minor is kind of 50s/60s kind of sound. It's quite soul-ey, really....

If I was doing this from the perspective a later guitar style, I might have chosen different arpeggios. Perhaps, m7 on minors, m7 a third up on majors, o7 on minor dominants, maybe m7 or b7 maj7 sub on majors...

**dizzy101** · 08-28-2016, 03:55 PM

These lessons on your channel are really top notch, Christian! An ideal mix of theory and playing! (I found this current lesson quite tricky compared to the easier earlier ones, tho.) Will be checking em all out.

**christianm77** · 08-28-2016, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by dizzy101

These lessons on your channel are really top notch, Christian! An ideal mix of theory and playing! (I found this current lesson quite tricky compared to the easier earlier ones, tho.) Will be checking em all out.

Thanks man.

There's a lot of info in this one.... It's more a road map than a step by step 'how to'...