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  1. #1

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    I wanted to start a thread about this idea.

    I don't claim to be an expert here, this is an idea I've been pursuing more recently. My video below is intended to start the conversation.

    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Hey MrB... yea tonal targets are what playing most jazz tunes is about, both soloing and comping. So for your first four bars... use

    Eb D Db and C for 1st 8bars, two bars each maybe with an Ab pedal with each note... keep the blues feel so,

    Eb F Ab Bb

    D F Ab C... Fmin or F7#9 yo get to''

    Db F Ab Bb

    C Eb G Ab then Eb- Ab7alt (D7#11) towards new target Of IV chord or Dbmaj

    So you would be implying changes with chord tone pattern with blue note relationships.

    I mean the basic functional movement is I7 II7 V7 I

    I need to pack up and go wk... but I'll post a few examples. late tonight, haven't played bebop in years.

  4. #3
    destinytot Guest
    I notice that 'quotes' that work well (imo) appear rhythmically bold in the new context.

  5. #4

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    Well this was a threadfail.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  6. #5

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    I didn't read the original thread on Donna Lee, so wasn't sure if I had enough information. But basically if I am to understand....,..,a tune is going very fast and in order to "slow" it down in your mind, you target the general tonality rather than each chord. And so it doesn't sound as square, you superimpose a tonality that utilizes extensions. So for the first couple of chords you could use f minor/f minor 7. Then when the II7 chord comes, you might play fminMaj 7 or Dmi7b5? Anyways, that does sound like a great idea. If I am missing something here.....which is highly likely, help fill in the pieces. It sounds like a highly practical idea.

  7. #6

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    Yeah, you're on to it.

    It has nothing to do with Donna Lee in particular, just the tune of the moment.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  8. #7

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    To start, I'm a proud "changes chaser", or better yet, a function chaser. To me, and everything I've studied from the greats, that's really the heart of bebop, you've got to play the changes.

    so to start, On the Ab, I can obviously play anything related to those notes, my usual vocabulary would be

    chord tones and chromatics
    extensions
    tonic subs (iii vi)
    major or Lydian
    blues (could be maj or min pent, playing min pent of its vi, etc)

    next, you have a dominant function F7

    chord tones
    extensions
    half diminished vocab (from 3rd of Dom)
    mixolydian or rarely Lydian dominant (more typical on a standalone Dom)
    diminished
    altered
    whole tone
    pentatonic subs (often implying one of the above sounds)
    diminished equivlent subs (could be A diminished leading to Bb, or even any of the dominant7 equivalents, but at 230, it's tough to think that fast, so it's probably a lick in my pocket, probably a dom7b9 arp)
    blues

    On the Bb7, a non functioning dominant I can use much of the above dominant vocabulary, but many times (at least in Donna lee), I play the blues on that chord. That can mean many things as far as approach goes, but you'll know it's the blues when you hear it.

    Bb turns minor, to Eb7 to Ab, again any of the dominant material works. Often sacrificing part or all of the minor chord in order to have more time on the dominant/tension to do something that sounds cool.

    On that Ab, I'll usually treat it as a dominant leading to the IV.


    So, nothing groundbreaking. It's just a matter of having a bunch of vocabulary appropriate for each function, the stringing those lines together to hopefully get out what I'm humming in my head.

    what I can say I rarely do is play (what I call) the "key based approach", ok on this section I'll play from Ab, then on this section I play (for instance if there is a ii v I, just playing from the key of the I)... I find that approach (which certainly works for some) ends up "glazing over" the changes. I much prefer the tonic/dominant system where you can really take advantage of the tension created by dominant chords to play something hip.


    Just keeping the conversation going, take care.
    Last edited by vintagelove; 06-12-2016 at 09:48 AM.

  9. #8

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    Good stuff vintagelove.

    Yeah, function chasing is where it's at. I was referring to change chasing as trying to hit every chord as it is, so to speak. It can actually be pretty vanilla.

    I'm not talking about shortcuts or playing some scale that covers all the chord in a "key." That's not bop playing.

    This also isn't something cute that needs to be done with every chord, and playing blues on that Bb is a great sound.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 06-12-2016 at 09:57 AM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  10. #9

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    So the point of using targets as compared to actual changes is to have less to spell or imply harmonically.

    When one says function... or tonal function, there are standard musical implications, I'll skip the details, but you can expand the use of the idea and basically group changes into chord patterns, right, I've posted for years about Chord patterns, the "chord pattern" becomes basically one chord, one tonal target or even expanding the use of Function, one tonal function.

    Which is already pretty common practice... right. Again one needs to have an analysis of the tune, the basic reference from which one simplifies the basic chordal or harmonic movement.

    Where one goes from there has lots of possibilities. Personally... I generally make choices as to what application of organization... what harmonic reference or Style of harmony I want to create relationships with... and then develop, solo etc.

    So again just using Donna Lee, because harmonically it's pretty simple. generally dominant influenced swing changes, Blues influence. Most approaches and embellishments are dominant related... so works well with the functional target approach.

    So when I look at the tune, here's what I would see... I just put in some notes on the first 16 bars to show somewhat deeper analysis of changes with reference to the melody. If the melody isn't exact... it really doesn't make any difference, a few of the changes would be different... but the harmonic approach would be the same.

    Another possibility would be to play the tune at 1/2 the tempo, maybe around mm110 and just double time the feel, same basic effect ... changes are 2 bars instead of 1. I think I remember Christian bring that approach up, anyway actually gives you more time to spell changes or melodically develop whatever one chooses.
    Here's a PDF of analysis, I didn't actually put Roman Numerals, It's pretty obvious, if not I'll add etc..
    Attached Images Attached Images

  11. #10

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    Just a thought about the Bb7, why do you call it non functioning ? Typically would be secondary dominant, which still has dominant function to target of Eb. Or even if one chooses to use borrowing or Modal interchange... and call it a II chord, with subdominant function, it's still functioning.

    It's a blues or standard traditional functional chord movement... Tonic, Subdominant, Dominant and Tonic.

    You can play very basic blues harmonic pattern.... Abmaj and just use the basic Blue Notes B or Cb... b3 or #9 , Gb ...b7 ,
    D ...#11 and Root or Ab. Anyway you would need to create blue note pattern to imply movement or functional targets.

  12. #11

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    Just my "didn't go to music school" ignorance. I simply meant it's not pulling to Eb as a I...

    I hear it as a point of rest, probably because I'm singing Indiana in my head.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Just a thought about the Bb7, why do you call it non functioning ? Typically would be secondary dominant, which still has dominant function to target of Eb. Or even if one chooses to use borrowing or Modal interchange... and call it a II chord, with subdominant function, it's still functioning.

    It's a blues or standard traditional functional chord movement... Tonic, Subdominant, Dominant and Tonic.

    You can play very basic blues harmonic pattern.... Abmaj and just use the basic Blue Notes B or Cb... b3 or #9 , Gb ...b7 ,
    D ...#11 and Root or Ab. Anyway you would need to create blue note pattern to imply movement or functional targets.


    Essentially, because it changes to minor (obviously not your textbook dom function), before going to Eb. That changes how I hear/approach it, a "standalone dom7". Like I said, you could certainly ignore the Bbm7 and just treat that (Bbm7 Eb7) as a big tension (Eb7) leading back to Ab. I still will use any of my dominant vocabulary, I just treat the resolutions a bit different.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Essentially, because it changes to minor (obviously not your textbook dom function), before going to Eb. That changes how I hear/approach it, a "standalone dom7". Like I said, you could certainly ignore the Bbm7 and just treat that (Bbm7 Eb7) as a big tension (Eb7) leading back to Ab. I still will use any of my dominant vocabulary, I just treat the resolutions a bit different.
    People getting confused by chord substitutions? Indiana (in Ab) is this:

    Ab | F7 | Bb7 | % | Eb7 | % | Ab | Ab7 | Db | Gb7 (or more likely Dbm) | and so on

    Take it from someone who has done too many trad jazz & swing gigs :-) The ii-V BS came later.

    If I was practicing the changes I would choose to base my practice over the simplest possible version of the chords - basically the trad changes... That's what I learned from Barry Harris.

    Although actual early style players can get *very* anal about changes. There are a lot of details that get smoothed over in later versions of tunes. Here's how it was played in 1917. Chorus at 0:24.



    VI7 for the first two bars. Hip. Also notice the rhythm of the melody that allows this.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-12-2016 at 02:30 PM.

  15. #14

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    Interesting that Charlie P. Often uses a Gb on the Bb7 chord, including the head. b13 on the V7/V7 chord? Or excuse my ignorance, but is the Gb a delayed b9 on the previous F7 chord?

  16. #15

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    Ok a standalone dominant, like in Blues tunes, or are you implying a Tonic like function.

    I personally hear as Subdominant function, but I could very easily call a tonic tonal target, and not keep Ab as tonal reference.

    Although that is the basic function of Subdominant right, feel somewhat at rest within reference to a different tonic...Ab.

    Yea Christian that's Indiana etc... but aren't we talking about Donna Lee changes and maybe even what the melody is implying and the direction of where changes were going.

    The point of playing functional targets as compared to changes is what I believe we're trying to get together, I don't thing anyone has difficulty playing over Indiana...

    I'm Ok with any set of changes, as long as we agree. Another point this thread could lead to is how to comp in styles that are somewhat current, say only 50 or 60 years old... which is where playing functional begins to expand possibilities.

    I know it can get pretty old playing triad and 7th chords based on lead sheets.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    I wanted to start a thread about this idea.

    I don't claim to be an expert here, this is an idea I've been pursuing more recently. My video below is intended to start the conversation.

    Some lovely lines man.

    I like II7#11 (or VI minor on II7.) I think this in general sounds better in bop than V7#11, say.

    TBH I think the underlying harmony of Donna Lee is so traddy and simple that this stuff is pretty much built in. Just make sure you get a pencil and cross out all the the 'iis' in the 'ii-V's' and you be fine - that's advice I would give in in general when learning to solo on tunes.

    (Or you could cross out the V's instead, if you like that better. Minorise the dominants Pat Martino/Charlie Christian style....)

    If I absolutely had to explain on the bandstand right before we play it to someone who had never played it before, but knew the slang

    1) Round the houses, sits on II for a bit.
    2) IV and back
    3) Round the houses, sits on II for a bit
    4) Go to minor, back to major

    That's it. Enough to solo by at least, and someone with good ears good certainly fill in the details.

    In my experience, guys with a bit of trad background are much happier doing this than players who have only played modern jazz, for all sorts of reasons.

    The method by which 4 operates --> Eb7 Eo7 Fm followed by Fm6 Bb7 Bo7 Ab/C is rather neat, but not structurally important IMO (which is why I struggle doing the BH 1-7-1 thing over it even though I play Indiana all the time, and Donna Lee on occasion.)

    You have the underlying template in your mind right away. Often specific chord qualities are changed between the originals and the bop heads - IVm for IV7, for instance on Dewey Square - but the structures are the same.

    (A bit like Lester playing IVm over #IVo7 in Lady be Good. Each time. He's just thinking IV back to I, right?)

    Based on my experience, I would advise anyone serious about bop to take a look at the original swing melodies and chords the contrafacts where built on. It's where Bird was coming from, after all....

    Compare the original changes to Embraceable You and what Parker expresses on Quasimodo, for example.

    Gershwin
    Eb | Gbo7 | Fm7 | Bb7 | Fm7 | Abm6 | Eb etc

    Parker (IIRC)
    Eb | C7b9 | Fm7 | Bb7 | Fm7 | Bb7 | Eb

    IMO Bird is hearing/seeing

    Eb | Gubbins | Fm7/Bb7 for a bit | % | % | More Gubbins? Nah forget it | Eb

    How these targets are reached are not so important.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-12-2016 at 03:12 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yea Christian that's Indiana etc... but aren't we talking about Donna Lee changes and maybe even what the melody is implying and the direction of where changes were going.
    I hear nothing in the melody of Donna Lee that references any harmony outside of the original Indiana changes. IMO.

    This reasoning is coming out the Barry Harris thing, where you basically strip everything down till it looks like the plainest most banjo harmony imaginable and then build scalic lines that flow through the changes with various ornaments, patterns and displacements to stop things from getting too boring. DL fits particularly well into that scheme, in fact.

    Comping wise, it's the same. Strip down, build up. Add in subs and movement to taste.

    I think most experienced pro players can do that from glancing at a lead sheet, no?

    Later - learn the common subs historically, perhaps starting with the original sheet music or a trustworthy source like Dick Hyman's book. Consult a historical discography of the tune (much easier now!) Do your homework. Takes a while for every tune, but it's interesting.

    Learning the melody is important too.... It's crazy how many common subs actually don't fit the melody very well, but that's another story! Jonathan Kreisberg has a good rant about that.

    I don't know where people are getting their changes from, but I'm guessing probably the Real Book? The ii-V's are a chord sub. Stylistic to bop perhaps (not early bop IMO), but unnecessary for actually learning the tune.

    Also I wouldn't bet my mother on the fact that the RB changes are transcribed - accurately or otherwise - from any actual recorded source.

    TL;DR (after three longish posts) Learning the lame-ass banjo shit gives you maximum flexibility to add your own shit - kapeesh? ;-)
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-12-2016 at 03:39 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    People getting confused by chord substitutions? Indiana (in Ab) is this:

    Ab | F7 | Bb7 | % | Eb7 | % | Ab | Ab7 | Db | Gb7 (or more likely Dbm) | and so on

    Take it from someone who has done too many trad jazz & swing gigs :-) The ii-V BS came later.

    If I was practicing the changes I would choose to base my practice over the simplest possible version of the chords - basically the trad changes... That's what I learned from Barry Harris.

    Although actual early style players can get *very* anal about changes. There are a lot of details that get smoothed over in later versions of tunes. Here's how it was played in 1917. Chorus at 0:24.



    VI7 for the first two bars. Hip. Also notice the rhythm of the melody that allows this.

    I'm not sure who is confused, I know I'm not... Perhaps you missed this in my post

    "Often sacrificing part or all of the minor chord in order to have more time on the dominant/tension to do something that sounds cool"

    Also, I would argue the head pretty clearly spells out a Bbm7. You can play it simple if you like, I prefer the bebop approach.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank View Post
    Interesting that Charlie P. Often uses a Gb on the Bb7 chord, including the head. b13 on the V7/V7 chord? Or excuse my ignorance, but is the Gb a delayed b9 on the previous F7 chord?
    Could be... isn't that the old school.... it's either Dom.7th chord or implied Dom7th of target HM. b9 and b13 nat5th

    I think most just used the two... in DL... yea no Gnat. or Ab until late in solos.

  21. #20

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    So vintagelove, would you address that ii every time it came around, or would you treat the whole move as dominant, or minor, or use a device like "play something on the ii, move it up a m3 over the V?

    Just interested. And I wanna keep this thread going, it's a lot more interesting than "I bought another guitar today."
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    I'm not sure who is confused, I know I'm not... Perhaps you missed this in my post

    "Often sacrificing part or all of the minor chord in order to have more time on the dominant/tension to do something that sounds cool"

    Also, I would argue the head pretty clearly spells out a Bbm7. You can play it simple if you like, I prefer the bebop approach.
    Yeah, I'm probably just confusing you. Different approaches covering the same ground.

    I use the BH approach, I'm thinking mostly in scales, broken up into various arpeggios etc rather than just an Eb7 (which was a boring sound even during the swing era when minor subs where in fact common, let alone bop).

    From that point of view DL makes perfect sense as a line on Indiana without any ii-V's, but if you aren't of that school what I'm saying is probably not making a huge amount of sense.

    Should have thought of that before posting in detail. I kind of forget how much assumed background there is in this stuff.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by srlank View Post
    Interesting that Charlie P. Often uses a Gb on the Bb7 chord, including the head. b13 on the V7/V7 chord? Or excuse my ignorance, but is the Gb a delayed b9 on the previous F7 chord?
    Am I being dim? Where in the head does this happen?

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So vintagelove, would you address that ii every time it came around, or would you treat the whole move as dominant, or minor, or use a device like "play something on the ii, move it up a m3 over the V?

    Just interested. And I wanna keep this thread going, it's a lot more interesting than "I bought another guitar today."

    All of those are an option, thats whats nice about "function chasing", it gives you lots of options.

    I do like the Dom7 turning into a min7, especially if you are already playing a blues thing on the Bb7, you can string them together, leaning more and more toward that b3 on the Bbm7.

    Ultimately it's whatever i'm humming in my head at the moment.... hopefully.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah, I'm probably just confusing you. Different approaches covering the same ground.

    I use the BH approach, I'm thinking mostly in scales, broken up into various arpeggios etc rather than just an Eb7 (which was a boring sound even during the swing era when minor subs where in fact common, let alone bop).

    From that point of view DL makes perfect sense as a line on Indiana without any ii-V's, but if you aren't of that school what I'm saying is probably not making a huge amount of sense.

    Should have thought of that before posting in detail. I kind of forget how much assumed background there is in this stuff.
    I think this is the 3rd time it's been pointed out to you, we're not talking about Indiana.

    BTW, I would appreciate if you would stop implying I am somehow confused, as superimposing a ii over a dom7 (they are really the same thing) isn't exactly rocket science. Thanks.

    P.S. Gb is the first note on the Bb7.

  26. #25

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    Btw, about that Gb. I don't overthink it to much. To my ear it's just a little "blues move" (1 b3 4 b5 5 b5 4 b3, going to half dim off the 3rd of the dom7) out of a little Cmin thing (which there are several "excuses" for).

    There's always room for a little blues...

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    There's always room for a little blues...
    At least if you're doing it right.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    I think this is the 3rd time it's been pointed out to you, we're not talking about Indiana.

    BTW, I would appreciate if you would stop implying I am somehow confused, as superimposing a ii over a dom7 (they are really the same thing) isn't exactly rocket science. Thanks.

    P.S. Gb is the first note on the Bb7.
    I mean we are talking at cross purposes.

    I have my working model of how it all works but I don't appear to be a terribly good job of communicating it. It's not important really as you haven't directly asked for my help.

    However: if you are interested and if it makes any sense - the idea that you might substitute a Cm7 or a Ebmaj7 or a Am7b5 on a F7 for me is implicit in the statement, here is a F7.

    In that sense, a ii V is the same thing as a V because a ii is part of V - they are part of the same system. This is what I have learned from Barry.

    Obv. not everyone thinks this way.

    I would do it without thinking during improvisation now, so I don't really talk about it when I discuss these stripped down changes or the fact it makes (to me) no sense to talk about Donna Lee changes being different to Indiana changes.

    Same as if I say Rhythm Changes is really Bb | F7 | Bb | F7 | Bb7 | Eb7 | Bb | F7. I don't mean play those exact arpeggios, because that would sound like Lederhosen music. ;-)
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-12-2016 at 05:45 PM.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by vintagelove View Post
    Btw, about that Gb. I don't overthink it to much. To my ear it's just a little "blues move" (1 b3 4 b5 5 b5 4 b3, going to half dim off the 3rd of the dom7) out of a little Cmin thing (which there are several "excuses" for).

    There's always room for a little blues...
    Now I've looked at the chart, I see that I hear the first two beats of the Bb7 as an extension of the F7 chord.

  30. #29

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    In fact, I think you could hear the whole first phrase as being displaced back by two beats - you don't really get the F7 sound until the second half of the second bar (it's an Ab major scale until it hits the A natural), and obviously the phrase starts on beat 3.

    Wouldn't be unusual for Parker (if he wrote DL), given he was known for turning rhythm sections around.

    That's not something I've worked on personally, but it would be worth practicing taking my bebop phrases on changes and shifting them backwards and forwards. Without adding beats overall that would be tricky without a backing track.

  31. #30

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    On the top
    Bird might have been thinking ...
    |Ab. | A dim. | Bb7 etc

    A dim WH over the F7 thing to get to the II7
    yea that seems right to me
    Last edited by pingu; 06-12-2016 at 08:22 PM.

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    On the top
    Bird might have been thinking ...
    |Ab. | A dim. | Bb7 etc

    A dim WH over the F7 thing to get to the II7
    yea that seems right to me
    That's a point - yeah you could see this as a WH thing couldn't you? (Cf princeplanets thread)

    The way I've been taught, I would view that A dim thing as an Ab mixolydian with an optional A to nail the third of that F7 chord.

    That's how I now approach the vast majority of minor ii-V-I type and leading tone dim7 situations - backdoor with a raise one. Looking at this from the point of view of the dim7 chord I have these notes to play with (not including passing tones etc)

    C# D E F G A Bb (C)
    1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 6 7 (this is not how I would think of it, it's for comparison purposes only - I always think about the dominant scale a half step below.)

    WH on C# dim is this
    1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7

    Donna Lee has a lot of this motif on a dim7:
    1-b3-b5-b6-6-7-6-b6-5

    Obviously if you like your WH scale that's pretty WH. But I wouldn't see it like that at all. There's no clues (2, 4 say) to tell us which it is, so either interpretation is equally useful. Personally I've been practicing the Barry stuff to death so I naturally look at the line through that filter. The diminished scale interpretation didn't even occur to me till you pointed it out.

    It's worth remembering analysis is not mind reading. If you are into your diminished scale stuff and were to transcribe my playing, you might go 'oh, here c77 is using the diminished scale. What does he mean he doesn't use it? What is this dude smoking?'

    Analysis is rarely black and white... That's part of the fun.

    It also throws up the difference between process, analysis and results.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-13-2016 at 06:53 AM.

  33. #32

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    My 'target' on Donna Lee is just to get through the head in good time without flubbing any notes. Compared to that, I find soloing over the chord changes is relatively straightforward.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Another possibility would be to play the tune at 1/2 the tempo, maybe around mm110 and just double time the feel, same basic effect ... changes are 2 bars instead of 1. I think I remember Christian bring that approach up, anyway actually gives you more time to spell changes or melodically develop whatever one chooses.
    Here's a PDF of analysis, I didn't actually put Roman Numerals, It's pretty obvious, if not I'll add etc..
    Just wanted to point out having gone through the chart that the RB version of Donna Lee has quite a few differences with the Omnibook and my own transcriptions. I don't want to say mistakes exactly (well actually I do), but I think that the RB is an unreliable source for the head.

    I've had quite a few problems with this with the RB. Scrapple is a classic example. Might explain why bop heads never sound that tight on pick up gigs lol!

  35. #34

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    Boy, this thread was not intended to be about Donna Lee specifically...but I guess it is now.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  36. #35

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    yeah sorry , I contibuted to that mrB

    oh well think of a tune !
    (great thread btw ....I find it usefull
    to disscuss playing concepts wrt an actual
    tune tho)

    what do you think of the Adim thing ?

  37. #36

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    rythmically displacing the functions in the solo is a big part of bop - i am finding

    so you wait until half way through the Bb7 sound - for example - and then play F7 - Bb7- Bbm7

    or you wait until half way through the Ebmaj sound and then play Ab7 - Ebmaj7 - Ebmin7

    you have a lot of leeway - at least when you make the changes appear clearly in your line

    i think making your ear wait for a given sound by preceding it with 'its' dom. is an important and very widely applicable technique

  38. #37

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    ok here's a general thing that
    comes up in many tunes

    eg this kind of thing
    |Amin Amin/G| F#min7b5. B7. |

    I often reduce it to
    |Amin. | B7. |

    simpler , works for me

  39. #38
    destinytot Guest
    My idea of a target would be phrases that respect - without necessarily repeating ​it - the integrity of the phrase 'more-than-you + know...', i.e. half-note triplets, and a half-note.

    PS Harmonically, I've learned some lines that target b9, #9, b5, #5 on dominants, and 7 to 6 on major. They sound best descending, and I precede them with an arpeggio.

    (I'd like to figure out more, but first I'd like to spend time listening to Jimmy Raney.)
    Last edited by destinytot; 06-13-2016 at 08:47 AM.

  40. #39

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    Sorry to continue the Donna Lee ness :-) But here is my analysis of the head.

    I will write a longer post on Groyniad's thread.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-13-2016 at 09:21 AM.

  41. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    yeah sorry , I contibuted to that mrB

    oh well think of a tune !
    (great thread btw ....I find it usefull
    to disscuss playing concepts wrt an actual
    tune tho)

    what do you think of the Adim thing ?

    No problem! I just wanted to make sure people understood this idea isn't about "Donna Lee," it's about any tune--I picked Donna Lee as we were going over it and talking about playing in a bop style, which to me, this concept is. This is what beboppers were thinking about.

    The A diminished thing works, for sure, the chords are practically synonyms.

    A sound my ears are really liking recently is to play a half step above the V pulling you to I. And you can use almost any chord quality. Got this from an "old school" style cat I've been talking to.


    Hopefully we can keep this going, talk about more ideas...any ideas on dominant areas that resolve minor?

    Also, hopefully, people dig this isn't really just about reductions, or simplifications...it's still playing the changes, it's just viewing things by function. If that makes sense...I'm probably not explaining it well.
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 06-13-2016 at 09:26 AM.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad View Post
    rythmically displacing the functions in the solo is a big part of bop


    i think making your ear wait for a given sound by preceding it with 'its' dom. is an important and very widely applicable technique
    This is a huge thing in preventing your solo from sounding like a computer calculation. Listen to how Sonny Rollins plays with the harmonic form.

    When I'm on I try to do this. two easy tricks to start this kind of idea are

    1. hang on the V and don't resolve until well into the next bar

    2. If you have a familiar 4 bar progression, play it as if the time signature is 3/4 so you get to the last chord 3 beats early, and so hang on that for 7 beats

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk View Post

    2. If you have a familiar 4 bar progression, play it as if the time signature is 3/4 so you get to the last chord 3 beats early, and so hang on that for 7 beats
    Cool idea, I will try it out today.

    Yeah, anticipating, playing across the bar line, delaying...that's bop.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu View Post
    ok here's a general thing that
    comes up in many tunes

    eg this kind of thing
    |Amin Amin/G| F#min7b5. B7. |

    I often reduce it to
    |Amin. | B7. |

    simpler , works for me
    I would also do this (more or less).

    GDS has two stuck together:

    Dm Dm/C |Bm7b5 E7 | Am Am/G | F#m7b5 B7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C

    Becomes

    Dm | E7 | Am | B7 | Em7 A7 | Dm7 G7 | C

    Or even (if you like minor ii-V's)....

    Bm7b5 | E7 | F#m7b5 | B7 | Em A7 | Dm G7 | C

    Or in my BH inspired reckoning (one possible reduction)

    Dm | G7 G#o7 | Am | D7 D#o7 | C/E or Em6 | G7 | C

  45. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkirk View Post
    This is a huge thing in preventing your solo from sounding like a computer calculation. Listen to how Sonny Rollins plays with the harmonic form.

    When I'm on I try to do this. two easy tricks to start this kind of idea are

    1. hang on the V and don't resolve until well into the next bar

    2. If you have a familiar 4 bar progression, play it as if the time signature is 3/4 so you get to the last chord 3 beats early, and so hang on that for 7 beats
    I like this. I shall practice it...

  46. #45

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    So to nip back at this thread, I'm finding more and more things in "small movements" that I'm loving.

    So like a simple ii V I in C-- targeting Fmaj, Fminor, E minor.

    Or just Fmaj (or Fmaj7b5) to E minor.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  47. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post

    Also, hopefully, people dig this isn't really just about reductions, or simplifications...it's still playing the changes, it's just viewing things by function. If that makes sense...I'm probably not explaining it well.
    Oh, I was kinda thinking you were suggesting T/D reduction. Would be cool if you could clarify the difference, I'm trying to hang with y'all...

  48. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Oh, I was kinda thinking you were suggesting T/D reduction. Would be cool if you could clarify the difference, I'm trying to hang with y'all...
    +1

    How would you do a T/D reduction of Donna Lee BTW? Any reduction I come up with just looks like basic changes to Indiana.

  49. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    So to nip back at this thread, I'm finding more and more things in "small movements" that I'm loving.

    So like a simple ii V I in C-- targeting Fmaj, Fminor, E minor.

    Or just Fmaj (or Fmaj7b5) to E minor.
    Ooh that's my favourite. Fmaj Fmin Emin FTW.

    Incidentally in Barry talk that would be:
    Fmaj7 = G dominant scale, arpeggio from the 7th
    Fmin = Bb dominant scale (backdoor), arpeggio from the 3rd (Fm6/Dm7b5) or arpeggio from the 5th (Fm7)
    Emin = C major scale, arpeggio from the 3rd

    If that makes any sense at all.... Probably sounds a bit cumbersome at first, but I like the way it divides off harmonic choices from specific melodic material.

    But I got into it the way you describe it before I starting doing the BH thang.
    Last edited by christianm77; 06-13-2016 at 01:34 PM.

  50. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Ooh that's my favourite. Fmaj Fmin Emin FTW.

    Incidentally in Barry talk that would be:
    Fmaj7 = G dominant scale, arpeggio from the 7th
    Fmin = Bb dominant scale (backdoor), arpeggio from the 3rd (Fm6/Dm7b5) or arpeggio from the 5th (Fm7)
    Emin = C major scale, arpeggio from the 3rd

    If that makes any sense at all.... Probably sounds a bit cumbersome at first, but I like the way it divides off harmonic choices from specific melodic material.

    But I got into it the way you describe it before I starting doing the BH thang.
    Seems like a complicated way of saying F Lydian, F Dorian, E Phrygian.

  51. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet View Post
    Oh, I was kinda thinking you were suggesting T/D reduction. Would be cool if you could clarify the difference, I'm trying to hang with y'all...


    Well, I'd say that definitely goes into it. The idea I'm getting at is playing to the "function" of the chord (or maybe a few chords) as opposed to playing every change or playing off common subs.

    I'm not explaining well. Ok, so like looking at dominant areas, like I did above, that's a superimposition...if you changed the actual chords of the tune to that, you'd be changing the tune...but you can play that stuff to create a melodic line and it interacts with the harmony in a cool way, non-obvious (well, to me at least) ways of creating tension/resolution.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington